HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[Bhojpuranchali]

They're fools to call it obsolete.

The IAF is still flying 2 squadrons of MiG-21 Bisons. Those are obsolete.

It still has 2 squadrons of Jaguar DARIN 2 which are obsolescent (they'll be obsolete in a few years).

F-16s that come with digital FBW, nearly 12,000 hours of airframe life, are 9G capable and are equipped with AESA radar, a modern EW suite, AMRAAMs, AIM-9X, JHMCDS, Sniper targeting pod, and a range of air to ground weapons cannot be called obsolete. That's either out of ignorance or just to make it seem that by not offering the F-35, the USA was offering an inferior fighter (which it is).

The F16, Mirage 2000, Jaguar Darin 3, Mig-21, and Mig-29, all of them are outdated Su30MKI without the Super Sukhoi upgrade is also outdated. Su30MKI will also start retiring in the next 15 years . In PAF except for the J10C and JF17 Block 3, all other fighter jets are outdated, NONE of them have AESA Radar. JF17 doesn't have some high tech and powerful AESA Radar but it's still better than having pulse Doppler or pesa radar

 

[Bhojpuranchali]

HAL has modified the Jaguars, fitting them with an AESA radar and other modern avionics, and also made them capable of firing air-to-air missiles in self-defense in the Darin 3 upgrade. However, but that doesn't mean it's a modern aircraft. Instead of modifying the Jaguar, India should have replaced it with a new fighter jet. Similarly, the MiG-21 was being modified for decades because Tejas MK1A was getting delayed

 

[panzerfaust 3]

As I mentioned before, instead of presenting data to support your argument, you resorted to name calling.

You are good with arguments and you are persistent!
But l think you are over enthusiastic,please turn down a bit others need a breather too
Wanna tell me about your name bhojpuranchali? What's the story behind it?

 

[Deino]

As I mentioned before, instead of presenting data to support your argument, you resorted to name calling.

So where is your data that "proves" the Uttam radar is better and by the way, whereas the Rafale's radar is in service since decades a reliable capable system, your overhyped Uttam is still far from service entry, has "maybe" on paper - in fact since don't provide data - better performance albeit is totally unproven and again, only being newer does not equal being better.

So, take this as a warning for trolling, unless proving your point any such claims "you do this and miss that" are lies.

 

[Deino]

You are good with arguments and you are persistent!
But l think you are over enthusiastic,please turn down a bit others need a breather too
Wanna tell me about your name bhojpuranchali? What's the story behind it?

No he's not. He's good with wild claims, with picking up any argument that fits HIS agenda regardless how stupid it is, is good at playing quartet's game like "my grey on Tejas" is darker so it beats a lighter grey on your F-16, aka F-16 is outdated' and he's good at misreading , false-claiming and putting wrong words into other's moth in order to twist the story.

 

[GoMig-21]

That's a load of bunkum.

The Rafale was considered the superior fighter overall. Better in terms of it's cockpit, Situational Awareness, EW suite as well as air to surface missions with higher payload and range. It was just considered a very well rounded and very well designed fighter.

The Eurofighter didn't have an AESA while the Rafale was flying with the RBE2 AESA since more than a decade. It is only now that Eurofighters in Kuwait are entering service with AESA and AESA is offered for exports with Captor E.

Even as of now, many of the partner nations don't have a clear roadmap for when their existing Tranche 2 Eurofighters will get AESA.

Indeed. Even with the Captor-E, the Rafale still pulls it's weight quite well against the EFT. That's not to take anything away from the Typhoon, hell it's a beast in its own right, but aside from perhaps max altitude & service ceiling and maybe a slight advantage in the TWR of the EJ200 engines, the two are pretty much on par with the Rafale having a drastic combat-proven edge.

The only other advantage I'll give the EFT is it has built-in decoys launcher with its Pretorean/DASS defensive system but at the same time, it loses its wingtip stations which the Rafale does have to carry more MICAs and in the end, with SPECTRA, I'm not even sure I would give the advantage to the EFT.




I would say overall, they're quite evenly matched with a slight edge to Rafale, but an arguable one. India made the right decision without question considering the IAF's Mirage 2Ks and their present & future role.

 

[MirageBlue]

Indeed. Even with the Captor-E, the Rafale still pulls it's weight quite well against the EFT. That's not to take anything away from the Typhoon, hell it's a beast in its own right, but aside from perhaps max altitude & service ceiling and maybe a slight advantage in the TWR of the EJ200 engines, the two are pretty much on par with the Rafale having a drastic combat-proven edge.

The only other advantage I'll give the EFT is it has built-in decoys launcher with its Pretorean/DASS defensive system but at the same time, it loses its wingtip stations which the Rafale does have to carry more MICAs and in the end, with SPECTRA, I'm not even sure I would give the advantage to the EFT.

View attachment 47319


I would say overall, they're quite evenly matched with a slight edge to Rafale, but an arguable one. India made the right decision without question considering the IAF's Mirage 2Ks and their present & future role.

That edge that the Eurofighter has with most other Air Forces, does not exist when it comes to India.

The reason being that India paid extra to get it's Rafales integrated with Israeli Rafael's X guard Towed decoy. That towed decoy is visible in the pic below.

 

[MirageBlue]

Indeed. Even with the Captor-E, the Rafale still pulls it's weight quite well against the EFT. That's not to take anything away from the Typhoon, hell it's a beast in its own right, but aside from perhaps max altitude & service ceiling and maybe a slight advantage in the TWR of the EJ200 engines, the two are pretty much on par with the Rafale having a drastic combat-proven edge.

The only other advantage I'll give the EFT is it has built-in decoys launcher with its Pretorean/DASS defensive system but at the same time, it loses its wingtip stations which the Rafale does have to carry more MICAs and in the end, with SPECTRA, I'm not even sure I would give the advantage to the EFT.

View attachment 47319


I would say overall, they're quite evenly matched with a slight edge to Rafale, but an arguable one. India made the right decision without question considering the IAF's Mirage 2Ks and their present & future role.

What I've heard is that the Rafale presents a far better fused data picture for superior Situational Awareness than the Eurofighter.

It also has the better flight control systems than the Eurofighter. And in terms of just pure performance, the Rafale can beat a Eurofighter below 10,000 ft and till 20,000 ft, the Eurofighter can't beat the Rafale in pure BFM terms. It is only above 20,000 ft that the Eurofighter starts to gain an advantage performance wise.

The side stick of the Rafale is also better than the center stick on the Eurofighter. It supposedly makes it easier to fly and the pilot feels more "at one" with the airplane than with the center stick. But that could be subjective.

Payload, range also favor the Rafale as does the overall flexibility of the platform to perform various roles.

I've read a great article by Peter Collins "Rampant Rafale". It is worth a full read to get an idea on just how well Dassault have crafted the Rafale. IMO, it is by far the best 4.5 gen fighter in the world. Just read what Peter Collins (A Britisher not a Frenchman, who also worked as Flight International's Test Pilot) said about the Rafale against Eurofighter in a Hushkit article-

The Rafale and Peter Collins

Peter later became Flight International’s test pilot. His glowing review of the Rafale was particularly interesting. With his great experience and knowledge of flying fighter aircraft, I was keen to ask his opinion on modern fighters. I also asked him about the perennial Rafale versus Typhoon question. As he has flown Rafale and the Typhoon simulator (programmed to represent the latest variant) he was one of the most qualified to discuss this subject. It was last December that I had the chance to bombard him with my schoolboy questions.

In regards to within-visual range combat he noted:

“This is always difficult to call. The Typhoon helmet mounted display, especially in the yet to be ordered Striker 2 version, is superb. I think the Rafale would eat Typhoon below 10,000ft. The Bug (legacy Hornet) is also superb”

Peter was a staunch supporter of the Rafale, and believed many underestimate it.

“My 2009 article for Flight international stands. If I was buying a multi-role aircraft I would buy Rafale but an awful lot of politics, economics, offset deals, military preference and bias comes in the way…I’m not paid by Dassault or Eurofighter. Remember that the Rafale is designed to replace seven French types: Jaguar, Marine F-8 Crusader, Marine Super Etendard, Mirage F1, Mirage F1R, M2000C and the M2000N – which is probably why it is optimised for lower levels. It is recce-, nuclear (ASMP)- , carrier-capable (something Typhoon will never be), it has AESA, is getting Meteor, drops SCALP, Hammer and LGB. It has better low-observable shaping, and will stick with Typhoon below 20,000 feet. It has very good electronic countermeasures in SPECTRA, and has better flight control system characteristics (I’ve flown it). It also has GPS based, and therefore silent, auto terrain following. It also has forward optics for visual identification. It is the best fighter aircraft I have ever flown.”

Read his full flight test of the Rafale here. It is one of the best unbiased reviews you'll read.

Flight International article by Peter Collins- Rampant Rafale

 

[MirageBlue]

The F16, Mirage 2000, Jaguar Darin 3, Mig-21, and Mig-29, all of them are outdated Su30MKI without the Super Sukhoi upgrade is also outdated. Su30MKI will also start retiring in the next 15 years . In PAF except for the J10C and JF17 Block 3, all other fighter jets are outdated, NONE of them have AESA Radar. JF17 doesn't have some high tech and powerful AESA Radar but it's still better than having pulse Doppler or pesa radar

This is really getting boring now.

The F-16V or F-16 Block 70 or F-21, any of these variants are more than capable of taking on any of the new 4.5 gen fighters out there.

It has a digital FBW, as do the Mirage-2000, MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI. The difference between flying such a jet versus a jet with mechanically controlled or augmented controls is pretty big.

Avionics wise, the F-16V/Blk70/F-21 are all almost as modern as a Eurofighter or Rafale. It's airframe too has seen evolution and upgrades in each Block. It's weapons are modern, as modern as those of any other 4.5 gen fighter and so are it's sensors.

So when it's eyes (sensors), ears (sensors), claws (weapons) and airframe and FCS (body) as well as computers (brains) are all upgraded and up to modern spec, then on what basis are you making all this "obsolete obsolete" claims?

If you keep up with this "this is obsolete, that is obsolete" claims without doing any proper research then I'm just going to let it go. I frankly don't have enough time to keep educating you.

 

[kaku]

So where is your data that "proves" the Uttam radar is better and by the way, whereas the Rafale's radar is in service since decades a reliable capable system, your overhyped Uttam is still far from service entry, has "maybe" on paper - in fact since don't provide data - better performance albeit is totally unproven and again, only being newer does not equal being better.

So, take this as a warning for trolling, unless proving your point any such claims "you do this and miss that" are lies.

For the fact that Uttam is coming with Ultra low side lobe is enough to claim superiority, RBE2 AA is superior in utilizing vivaldi antenna, while Uttam is with dipole antenna.

 

[BP2]

MBDA won’t deny integrating meteor with Tejas but they will share source code only when India makes a bulk order for missiles

Not really.
Integration was blocked with israeli radar.
Even for a US radar all is not so clear.... The job to integrate Meteor on F35 is not made so far if I remember well. I think USA is braking the job, and in a couple of months will say "no more needed as our new missile is ready".

 

[BP2]

Delta wings are neither the latest nor necessarily better than other wing types. Every design has its pros and cons. The best choice depends on the mission and situation. The F-16XL was tested a long time ago but was not adopted, demonstrating that even advanced designs might not be practical. The Mirage 3's delta wing doesn't make it inherently superior to the F-16. However, delta wings can offer advantages in specific roles.

Indeed.
Delta is stronger, allowed more fuel inside, is very potent at high speed but has more drag in high G turns (because need higher AoA).
The best Delta configuration is the one used in Lavi, Gripen, Rafale, Chinese J-10 : close coupled canards that removed the need of higher AoA.
Another solution used by russians and tested by French + German is the Levcon.

 

[GoMig-21]

That edge that the Eurofighter has with most other Air Forces, does not exist when it comes to India.

The reason being that India paid extra to get it's Rafales integrated with Israeli Rafael's X guard Towed decoy. That towed decoy is visible in the pic below.

Agreed, but it doesn't even have to be a zionist decoy launcher. There are countless brands & makes out there that could be integrated but the point is that while it can be added, it takes away a station where a critically needed additional weapon could be used. And the same but opposite argument could be said about the EFT's built-in decoy is that it's always there and doesn't need to be added. At the same time, it's minus 2 pylons all the time so it becomes a subjective thing; which one would any individual prefer at what time. One of those things that can be argued both ways.

But overall I'm with you on the Rafale having the edge in the end and it might also be a testament to Dassault for pulling out of the Eurofighter consortium to concentrate on building it. One can't help but think had they not done that and stayed with the EFT C., what would've been the future of the Mirage/Rafale concept.

And I'm with you on the F-16's supposed "obsolescence," too. To claim the latest variants of the Viper as obsolete is baseless. That would be like saying the F-15EX is obsolete and that obviously couldn't be further from the truth.

The F-15EX is an improved airframe that looks exactly like the original but is oodles & poodles different in every sense of the word from structurally to materially and the most important of all is the avionics & electronics. Those are the latest & greatest to match all the latest and greatest out there. As a matter of fact, one can even say the F-15EX is a product of the evolution of the F-16 block 70/Viper/F-21.

This is truly the advantage of being originally well-designed as an overall platform. The time, energy and know-how that was put into the overall design of the aircraft has allowed it to be viable through the evolutions of other, newer airframes as long as the vital elements could be modularly replaced as the technology evolves.

 

[BP2]

Eurofighter is superior to the Rafale, and no one can deny that. But, F-16 is outdated and the Indian Air Force has stated it's an outdated junk platform. Just because F-16 is cheap doesn't mean it's good.

Not so clear during some trainings against english EF2000 and french rafale....
A WVR training in scotland ended with a 6-1 kills for the french ! The english pilots were surprised not to see the french birds on their radar (may be thanks to Spectra used in a training mode...).

For all the Rafale bashing : just compare the export backlog to understand what is the best.

 

[BP2]

That's a load of bunkum.

The Rafale was considered the superior fighter overall. Better in terms of it's cockpit, Situational Awareness, EW suite as well as air to surface missions with higher payload and range. It was just considered a very well rounded and very well designed fighter.

The Eurofighter didn't have an AESA while the Rafale was flying with the RBE2 AESA since more than a decade. It is only now that Eurofighters in Kuwait are entering service with AESA and AESA is offered for exports with Captor E.

Even as of now, many of the partner nations don't have a clear roadmap for when their existing Tranche 2 Eurofighters will get AESA.

All was confirmed thank to swiss eval leaks.