Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[Princeps]

And honestly I see little use of Coastal subs for us, you have a very limited strip of shallow water next to India where these can operate, and operating here would make them vulnerable to optical sensors on ASW aircraft, hydrophones and small vessels. Subs that can operate in the Arabian Sea proper make far more sense.

 

[NeptunesVortex]

How can someone forget that indian navy 6+6 wont all be going to face Pakistan. India against pakistan has "size of sea to protect" vs "Pakistan 11 subs and most of them AIP" Issue.

Indian currently has 19 submarines and India has to keep some free for china. so I dont think India will be able to field 6 submarines against Pakistan let alone 10 or 12.

For china India needs to have at least 20 submarines and then whatever else for Pakistan.

Not just that, 12 of their current subs are rust buckets.

Satellite imagery during Ops Sindoor tells a very different story than your theory.

First if Pakistan Navy was so confident about its 11 submarines (including AIP boats), why were its surface ships dispersed and hiding in commercial ports and Gwadar instead of deploying forward? Satellite imagery clearly showed Karachi naval berths not fully occupied, warships mixed in with civilian shipping and multiple assets shifted west toward Gwadar. India doesn’t need to send 10-12 submarines into the Arabian Sea just to counter Pakistan because: Pakistan’s entire coastline and naval activity is geographically compressed (Karachi-Gwadar belt) that makes it easier to monitor, track and target.


Yes, India has to account for China but that’s a completely different operational axis in the wider Indian Ocean region. Pakistan is a localized theatre with very limited depth, so India doesn’t need to strip its deployments elsewhere just to handle Pakistan. India’s older submarines being rust buckets doesn’t really matter when it comes to handling PN because in shallow littoral waters like the Arabian Sea, even older but upgraded Kilo class boats remain quiet and dangerous. Pakistan’s AIP submarines are an advantage on paper but that advantage only matters if they are used aggressively and during Ops Sindoor there’s no indication they were pushing out to dominate.

 

[NeptunesVortex]

Relax buddy, China knew damn well that they will be fighting a coalition if it comes to that and hence they are preparing like no other country, give them 10-15 years and you will see them matching with USN in Destroyers, AC's, Submarines and long range Anti-ship BM's, and that is their power. Iran is hitting several countries/Military bases so imagine what China can do specially to the countries like Japan who they resent a lot due to past war crimes.

Also also PN although weak but won't be expecting Chinese Navy to come rescue, all PN will need is information which the most important thing China can provide us, and the rest PN will have prepare for IN. Now that doesn't negate that IN can't do anything but it won't be a one sided fight as many Indians believe, and remember Indians still believe that IAF can handle PAF with just mig/m2k's and SU's while in both 2019-2025 have their booty handed to them. PN surface fleet is weak hence they are building a sizeable Submarine fleet, and as some members pointed out IN has a huge coast line to defend which IN can't properly, PN can/will find loopholes in your ASW reach to sneak a sub or 2 for attacks on your ships/infrastructures. As for Surface fleet will be mostly for defense role as they will try to deny any air attacks on ports like Karachi or Gwadar.

Also, let not forget that Pakistan also have a significant numbers of Coastal batteries with Anti ship missiles ranging between 100-400 km. Pakistan has a very small coastline and for that PN although not super strong but a formidable force and its only keep getting better with time, just a couple of systems that will be joining in next few years are Submarines, Babur Class Frigates, Jinnah Class Frigates, Sea Sultan MPA's and may as @Ak01 mention SWAT's wont be far behind.

You’re looking at this like a brochure comparison “this country has X subs, that country has Y missiles” but war doesn’t play out like a spec sheet. Forget all the theory for a second and just look at what actually happened when things got tense. When pressure came, Pakistan Navy didn’t act like a force sitting on a confident underwater advantage. They quietly disappeared from usual naval berths, mixed with civilian ships and some shifted toward Gwadar. Satellite images showed that clearly.

 

[Princeps]

Satellite imagery during Ops Sindoor tells a very different story than your theory.

First if Pakistan Navy was so confident about its 11 submarines (including AIP boats), why were its surface ships dispersed and hiding in commercial ports and Gwadar instead of deploying forward? Satellite imagery clearly showed Karachi naval berths not fully occupied, warships mixed in with civilian shipping and multiple assets shifted west toward Gwadar. India doesn’t need to send 10-12 submarines into the Arabian Sea just to counter Pakistan because: Pakistan’s entire coastline and naval activity is geographically compressed (Karachi-Gwadar belt) that makes it easier to monitor, track and target.
View attachment 191526
View attachment 191531
Yes, India has to account for China but that’s a completely different operational axis in the wider Indian Ocean region. Pakistan is a localized theatre with very limited depth, so India doesn’t need to strip its deployments elsewhere just to handle Pakistan. India’s older submarines being rust buckets doesn’t really matter when it comes to handling PN because in shallow littoral waters like the Arabian Sea, even older but upgraded Kilo class boats remain quiet and dangerous. Pakistan’s AIP submarines are an advantage on paper but that advantage only matters if they are used aggressively and during Ops Sindoor there’s no indication they were pushing out to dominate.

We don't have 11 submarines rn

 

[hasssanali8998]

Didn

Satellite imagery during Ops Sindoor tells a very different story than your theory.

First if Pakistan Navy was so confident about its 11 submarines (including AIP boats), why were its surface ships dispersed and hiding in commercial ports and Gwadar instead of deploying forward? Satellite imagery clearly showed Karachi naval berths not fully occupied, warships mixed in with civilian shipping and multiple assets shifted west toward Gwadar. India doesn’t need to send 10-12 submarines into the Arabian Sea just to counter Pakistan because: Pakistan’s entire coastline and naval activity is geographically compressed (Karachi-Gwadar belt) that makes it easier to monitor, track and target.
View attachment 191526
View attachment 191531
Yes, India has to account for China but that’s a completely different operational axis in the wider Indian Ocean region. Pakistan is a localized theatre with very limited depth, so India doesn’t need to strip its deployments elsewhere just to handle Pakistan. India’s older submarines being rust buckets doesn’t really matter when it comes to handling PN because in shallow littoral waters like the Arabian Sea, even older but upgraded Kilo class boats remain quiet and dangerous. Pakistan’s AIP submarines are an advantage on paper but that advantage only matters if they are used aggressively and during Ops Sindoor there’s no indication they were pushing out to dominate.

Didn’t another guy come here and say the exact same things

 

[Oscar]

Didn

Didn’t another guy come here and say the exact same things

Yes - hold

 

[Oscar]

You’re looking at this like a brochure comparison “this country has X subs, that country has Y missiles” but war doesn’t play out like a spec sheet. Forget all the theory for a second and just look at what actually happened when things got tense. When pressure came, Pakistan Navy didn’t act like a force sitting on a confident underwater advantage. They quietly disappeared from usual naval berths, mixed with civilian ships and some shifted toward Gwadar. Satellite images showed that clearly.
View attachment 191529
View attachment 191530

Thank you for the “If then that “ Ai generated statement - however concluding

Your entire first paragraph is just a string of generic AI filler. “Brochure comparison,” “war doesn’t play out like a spec sheet,” and “forget all the theory for a second” are textbook telltale signs of an AI trying to sound conversational and nuanced because you did not give it an actual tactical point to make.

Let us talk about what actually happened since your AI forgot to read a basic naval doctrine manual since you probably don’t know how to use it.

You are claiming the Pakistan Navy “disappeared” and hid among civilian ships as if that is a sign of panic.

It is called force dispersal.
It is literally Naval Warfare 101. You do not leave your high value surface combatants parked in a neat little row at the Karachi dockyards during a hot conflict just waiting to absorb a preemptive strike.

Moving assets out of primary military bases, sharing berths with commercial shipping, and shifting to fallback ports like Gwadar is standard operating procedure for force preservation.

It spreads the fleet out and creates a massive targeting nightmare for the adversary. They can no longer distinguish between a military target and a civilian cargo ship on a satellite feed without risking a massive international incident.

Talk about the ignorant with a ego bias using AI to sound even more ignorant.

 

[Toxic]

And honestly I see little use of Coastal subs for us, you have a very limited strip of shallow water next to India where these can operate, and operating here would make them vulnerable to optical sensors on ASW aircraft, hydrophones and small vessels. Subs that can operate in the Arabian Sea proper make far more sense.

These aren't tiny Iranian or North Korean midget submarines that can only operate in shallow waters, these coastal subs will be comparable in displacement to the old dapne class subs (800-900 ton range).

although they might be more optimized for shallow water operations they can still operate deeper in the Arabian Sea if they need to.

 

[NeptunesVortex]

Yeah, Indians keep thinking in terms of assets v assets battle.

Funny you say that because most of the asset vs asset debates I’ve seen come from your side Rafale vs J-10C, HQ-9 vs S-400, YJ-12/CM-400 vs BrahMos. And when those neat comparisons didn’t translate cleanly in real world outcomes, suddenly the narrative shifts to don’t compare like that. And now that the discussion shifts to the Indian Navy vs PN, suddenly comparisons aren’t valid for you?

 

[Princeps]

These aren't tiny Iranian or North Korean midget submarines that can only operate in shallow waters, these coastal subs will be comparable in displacement to the old dapne class subs (800-900 ton range).

although they might be more optimized for shallow water operations they can still operate deeper in the Arabian Sea if they need to.

I know that, but why not go for bigger subs (at least Agosta 90 size) which will have more endurance and better sensors. S800 has a maximum depth of 250m or 820ft. I don't even think PN needs any more submarines when it will have 8 Hangors and 3 Agosta 90Bs.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

I know that, but why not go for bigger subs (at least Agosta 90 size) which will have more endurance and better sensors. S800 has a maximum depth of 250m or 820ft. I don't even think PN needs any more submarines when it will have 8 Hangors and 3 Agosta 90Bs.

After getting Hangor subs, what Pakistan Navy needs most urgently is infrastructure and not more subs or ships. We even don't have infrastructure to hold current inventory. The current naval bases looks like temporary or makeshift infrastructure. The Iran war is a clear lesson. I was saying that from years. See US/Israel could not completely destroy Iran's missile capability because of how well protected, dispersed, fortified and decentralized it was.

We have 2 major naval bases, where all ships are visible and completely stacked with each other. An surprise attack will remove 90% of navy in first 10 minutes. Even submarines are parked always at designated fixed coordinates visible to satellite eye. We DESPERATELY needs submarine pens, hardened underground submarine bases and not just one but several. We need atleast 4 to 6 naval bases which can hold large warships. Also we must remove stacking of warships. Each warship must have its own separate docking platform. The ship must not use another warship as docking platform.

Below is WORST thing to do. The first ship cannot even be deployed unless all crew is embarked on third and second warship. These all ships must be anchored separately on their own separate platforms. We simply do not have enough space in our current infrastructure. Also just one Brahmos will disable all three warships in this setting.




Lastly, we need advance SAM systems in all of the naval bases. Once we get basics done, only then we need to think of more platforms.

This is most alarming thing with Pakistan navy. I don't understand why they are not trying to fix it at war footing.

 

[Aziqbal]

a good post and hit the hammer on the head

 

[RealNapster]

After getting Hangor subs, what Pakistan Navy needs most urgently is infrastructure and not more subs or ships. We even don't have infrastructure to hold current inventory. The current naval bases looks like temporary or makeshift infrastructure. The Iran war is a clear lesson. I was saying that from years. See US/Israel could not completely destroy Iran's missile capability because of how well protected, dispersed, fortified and decentralized it was.

We have 2 major naval bases, where all ships are visible and completely stacked with each other. An surprise attack will remove 90% of navy in first 10 minutes. Even submarines are parked always at designated fixed coordinates visible to satellite eye. We DESPERATELY needs submarine pens, hardened underground submarine bases and not just one but several. We need atleast 4 to 6 naval bases which can hold large warships. Also we must remove stacking of warships. Each warship must have its own separate docking platform. The ship must not use another warship as docking platform.

Below is WORST thing to do. The first ship cannot even be deployed unless all crew is embarked on third and second warship. These all ships must be anchored separately on their own separate platforms. We simply do not have enough space in our current infrastructure. Also just one Brahmos will disable all three warships in this setting.

View attachment 191644


Lastly, we need advance SAM systems in all of the naval bases. Once we get basics done, only then we need to think of more platforms.

This is most alarming thing with Pakistan navy. I don't understand why they are not trying to fix it at war footing.

We heard that Pakistan is going to develop pasni and jiwani naval bases. But since then everything went silent. No progress.

If we develop these as well. Then we will have 4 major naval bases. Karachi, port Kasim, Pasni and Jiwani . Makes more sense then just stationing 70% of your navy at Karachi dockyard.

 

[Oscar]

After getting Hangor subs, what Pakistan Navy needs most urgently is infrastructure and not more subs or ships. We even don't have infrastructure to hold current inventory. The current naval bases looks like temporary or makeshift infrastructure. The Iran war is a clear lesson. I was saying that from years. See US/Israel could not completely destroy Iran's missile capability because of how well protected, dispersed, fortified and decentralized it was.

We have 2 major naval bases, where all ships are visible and completely stacked with each other. An surprise attack will remove 90% of navy in first 10 minutes. Even submarines are parked always at designated fixed coordinates visible to satellite eye. We DESPERATELY needs submarine pens, hardened underground submarine bases and not just one but several. We need atleast 4 to 6 naval bases which can hold large warships. Also we must remove stacking of warships. Each warship must have its own separate docking platform. The ship must not use another warship as docking platform.

Below is WORST thing to do. The first ship cannot even be deployed unless all crew is embarked on third and second warship. These all ships must be anchored separately on their own separate platforms. We simply do not have enough space in our current infrastructure. Also just one Brahmos will disable all three warships in this setting.

View attachment 191644


Lastly, we need advance SAM systems in all of the naval bases. Once we get basics done, only then we need to think of more platforms.

This is most alarming thing with Pakistan navy. I don't understand why they are not trying to fix it at war footing.

First part is getting out of Karachi port - the amount of corrosion just sitting in those waters causes is ridiculous.

Both Pasni and Gwadar are good natural fallbacks but also potential longer term bases but PN has to at least have it where it’s some tolerable posting.

 

[Lone Ranger]

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