India - China Relations

[Joe Shearer]

For now, someone has really recently updated the wiki page on the Hakka (from what I last remember) and left a really good map there:

What relief!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nah, this is just resurfacing (at both old PDF and now here) of pains from some sound deep wallops I gave in another forum (and severe losses the same chap took there, and called it quits heh).

I know the core psyche of this stuff (extreme political fanboy blowhards in general) and where it really hurts and comes from. But its really not worth revisiting for same particular fellow again (which he wants, so he can hector and badger with one-liners)....at least if its not something illuminating for others (which he doesn't want).

W H A T ?!!!
You've done all this before? Same mass of ignorance?

 

[VCheng]

W H A T ?!!!
You've done all this before? Same mass of ignorance?

No sir. Not the same mass of ignorance. This is the new and improved version of ignorance with added steroids.

 

[Nilgiri]

W H A T ?!!!
You've done all this before? Same mass of ignorance?

Yep, its what i meant by "powders expended" earlier...some severe points were made in Gotham (deep in the weeds of the civil war and mao era among other things really not worth rehashing at the present time, maybe a lot later if the larger convo evolves that way with others here etc.).

You see supes always gets in trouble in many arcs, because he is traditional superpower hero and fights the opponent directly and can end up walking into traps (and worse)

Too much of a boy scout, and some take advantage of that.... as much as I admire supes and the backstory that makes his psyche.

I'm closer to the anti-hero type regd "opponents", i.e no special powers and some degree of moral flaw and foibles driving things, Batman if you will.
I reconnoiter the situation well first....and I lay the traps....the blob (is it one or is it many?) predictably follows the breadcrumbs and lands in one or several for all to see
Eventually the blob gets tired of this precision, leaves Gotham altogether, cosies up in Metropolis again and becomes someone elses problem, not mine..

Its path of least resistance and pain for bozo's accustomed entrenched habits.

But this is all from when i felt there was something to be gained....(i.e I care about Gotham much more in the end, shrug),

There's also better things to do here in "new metropolis" first as its late in the game with blob types anyway.

I care not to expose my alter-ego here anymore too....not for the dime a dozen antics of a forum anyhow.

I mean even Han said to jabba the blob, next time come yourself, dont send one of these twerps.
i.e the quarry really has to be worth it heh, thats the approach I've decided to take.

I'm no jhungary, he was a real saint with these types (they really dont know what they squandered with him)...closer to supes approach for very long stretches.

But then again he has had to deal with lot more of them up close in real life too...the virtue of patience evolved from anchors he has deep in China too.

He at times also diligently brought out a cpl interesting atypical responses from the blobs (like you did in another thread for a second with Kangxi), but the investment is really huge to do that....and too wasteful overall from what I saw of it with Gary.

Actually that small Kangxi detour reminded me of some idioms (again) from China. Idioms almost make the full category headline/filing system I use in my head strangely for China.

It was Kangxi iirc, that issued the notable Edict to the laypeople through the magistrates.

It already had legacy with Hongwu (and even previously with the Song dynasty, there was something of an interregnum on this though with the Yuan given their different connection with the Chinese people).

But the key innovation by Kangxi was introduction of 以 to act as fulcrum in each edict line.

i.e yi (in order to, so as to etc) and follow up with some reasoning, rather than just stop with the order like Hongwu and predecessors did (in a 10 commandments kind of way).

It likely reflected some of the genial wisdom and nature of Kangxi, as literary as the edict remained (and the overall practical effect was likely limited considered given overall rural setting and what the magistrate and town crier etc really were able to influence the laypeople given the classism and stratification of general human society back then, Chinese or otherwise).

It was his son (Yongzheng) that published a larger form of it (still literary style though). This however allowed more vernacular to spread (Wang Youpu) on these and flourishing of a lot of great idioms (yes incl specifics in Hakka, Cantonese etc) that are much more valued by lot of Chinese scholars in more modern times.

A lot of these had real potency even up to 20th century when the state was in real churn and crucible itself....i.e things Sun Yat Sen et al were able to draw upon from ground level to add to mix of western enlightenment principles regarding the Republic (and the language the final Qing Empress dowager also used regd the abdication of Pu Yi the little boy - there are some interesting idioms in this edict too).

Regarding somethings that were brought up in that thread, also needs understanding of edicts issued by Yongzheng especially (since he really is kind of the bridge between Kangxi and Qianlong), the idioms contained within and concept of mandate of heaven.....as to why/how the Qing and concept of China were made as congruent as possible, why and how this is used subsequently (and maybe selectively and seeming hypocritically to outsiders)...especially the vision the Qing set out there regarding many ethnicities since they did not want to (among other things) be seens as some kind of interregnum like the Mongols did before, no matter the level of "sinicization" asserted. There was to be no dispute on this subsequently.

 

[Shanlung]

Interesting map.

But I think the migration started much much earlier , but not shown.

I was working and living in South Korea, as Project Controller on the Bechtel High Speed Rail of South Korea in 89 .

In any country, I tried to pick up the language and at least command a rudimentary Korean to get by.

One expect a language to be similar in that region of the world.

I was surprised, stunned actually, to find Korean in speech most similar to Cantonese (I an ethnic Cantonese) . One would have thought Korean speech to be more closely related to Manchurian or Beijing (actually called Mandarin)

In Korea when I was in doubt to a place, I found by wording that place name in Cantonese, korean folks seemed to know and would direct me there.

Then I thought must be due to migration. That perhaps at one time, Cantonese speaking people were at Manchuria region just next to Korea.

Vast land mass of China allowed the Cantonese to go on south, but Korea did not have that option. Ended up trapped in Korean Peninsula , but retaining speech of Cantonese.

 

[Nilgiri]

Interesting map.

But I think the migration started much much earlier , but not shown.

I was working and living in South Korea, as Project Controller on the Bechtel High Speed Rail of South Korea in 89 .

In any country, I tried to pick up the language and at least command a rudimentary Korean to get by.

One expect a language to be similar in that region of the world.

I was surprised, stunned actually, to find Korean in speech most similar to Cantonese (I an ethnic Cantonese) . One would have thought Korean speech to be more closely related to Manchurian or Beijing (actually called Mandarin)

In Korea when I was in doubt to a place, I found by wording that place name in Cantonese, korean folks seemed to know and would direct me there.

Then I thought must be due to migration. That perhaps at one time, Cantonese speaking people were at Manchuria region just next to Korea.

Vast land mass of China allowed the Cantonese to go on south, but Korea did not have that option. Ended up trapped in Korean Peninsula , but retaining speech of Cantonese.

Cantonese and Korean keep lot of similar "conservative" phonology from Tang era (and before)

Old Korean itself might have itself gotten heavily influenced during the Tang (if you look at the trade, influence, war history etc which was able to happen much more than say with japan which evolved a more unique phonology to "East Asian mainland" into modern day as result).

Old korean leaves very little trace to study to compare this to really make sure....but certain patterns can be analysed with history from middle Korean, old and middle Chinese etc.

i.e remove grammar from spoken Korean, and keep to just place names (since these are heavily chinese hanja origin often) means lot of similarity in end, enough to bridge i would say (but i dont have too much deep experience with korean).

Like one of my Korean buddies, his name is Jin-Tak, and ofc there is Kai Tak in HK etc. But does "Tak"/"Dak" exist in Mandarin with -k coda? Nope. 德 is just "de"

i.e the coda/endings with -k -t -p -m etc were conserved outside of Mandarin ...though Koreans really like -l endings as well (this probably is older artifact particular to them along with agglutination which makes the language itself so different when spoken with grammar etc)

If you study middle chinese more, it was likely during and after Tang and esp during conquest of mongols that northern vernacular (what we now call mandarin) started to really shift phonology from middle chinese (unlike say in Cantonese and Korean which kept it which you noticed in modern day hehe) and become more "innovative"/changed and drop lot of endings (like k, t , p, m etc) and also lean into things like erhua (especially beijing dialect i.e -r coda) while retaining things like -ng and -n the same as the larger Tang era phonology.

Take the mandarin I'm slowly progressing on expanding/improving, the early (received spoken) basis was mostly taught to me by Cantonese lady (mother of dear friend in HK)....so I dont have Beijing accent lol...only limited erhua in my mandarin.

Her mandarin is (near 100%) excellent though (mine is still at maybe 50% good, enough to get by), she did lot of tour group orientation stuff for mainlanders visiting HK back in the day....given she ran business with husband of import/export with China.

Her son (my buddy) in comparison knows very little mandarin. he didnt bother to learn it from his mom much (and still knows way less today compared to me especially since I'm investing into progressing on it). He knows just Cantonese....we talk in Cantonese and English growing up and also now.

He is guy that i learned most cantonese from by far....his reading/writing wasnt so great (he was in english medium school with me for a while, before switching to local HK one much later).... and I also really learned and learning the reading/writing much later in life too.

 

[Nilgiri]

Cantonese and Korean keep lot of similar "conservative" phonology from Tang era (and before)

Old Korean itself might have itself gotten heavily influenced during the Tang (if you look at the trade, influence, war history etc which was able to happen much more than say with japan which evolved a more unique phonology to "East Asian mainland" into modern day as result).

Old korean leaves very little trace to study to compare this to really make sure....but certain patterns can be analysed with history from middle Korean, old and middle Chinese etc.

i.e remove grammar from spoken Korean, and keep to just place names (since these are heavily chinese hanja origin often) means lot of similarity in end, enough to bridge i would say (but i dont have too much deep experience with korean).

Like one of my Korean buddies, his name is Jin-Tak, and ofc there is Kai Tak in HK etc. But does "Tak"/"Dak" exist in Mandarin with -k coda? Nope. 德 is just "de"

i.e the coda/endings with -k -t -p -m etc were conserved outside of Mandarin ...though Koreans really like -l endings as well (this probably is older artifact particular to them along with agglutination which makes the language itself so different when spoken with grammar etc)

If you study middle chinese more, it was likely during and after Tang and esp during conquest of mongols that northern vernacular (what we now call mandarin) started to really shift phonology from middle chinese (unlike say in Cantonese and Korean which kept it which you noticed in modern day hehe) and become more "innovative"/changed and drop lot of endings (like k, t , p, m etc) and also lean into things like erhua (especially beijing dialect i.e -r coda) while retaining things like -ng and -n the same as the larger Tang era phonology.

Take the mandarin I'm slowly progressing on expanding/improving, the early (received spoken) basis was mostly taught to me by Cantonese lady (mother of dear friend in HK)....so I dont have Beijing accent lol...only limited erhua in my mandarin.

Her mandarin is (near 100%) excellent though (mine is still at maybe 50% good, enough to get by), she did lot of tour group orientation stuff for mainlanders visiting HK back in the day....given she ran business with husband of import/export with China.

Her son (my buddy) in comparison knows very little mandarin. he didnt bother to learn it from his mom much (and still knows way less today compared to me especially since I'm investing into progressing on it). He knows just Cantonese....we talk in Cantonese and English growing up and also now.

He is guy that i learned most cantonese from by far....his reading/writing wasnt so great (he was in english medium school with me for a while, before switching to local HK one much later).... and I also really learned and learning the reading/writing much later in life too.

Hope its clearer now the interesting role of the Hakka in deducing some amount of the phonology analysis w.r.t their migration and the times these occurred among the phonology shifts/retentions around them @Joe Shearer

In that they retained a lot of the coda (having moved south after the Tang collapse) like southern peers they found themselves among (Cantonese, Fuzhou/Hokkien etc).....but elements of their language point to earlier northern vernacular already shaping up in old-middle chinese era there (different to the south)

They also retained certain features of middle chinese that say the Cantonese and others dropped/merged.

I'll try get more into the Hakka again later on.

The Hokkien (min languages) are even more interesting in some ways because they are not direct descendants of middle Chinese (like say Mandarin, Hakka, Cantonese, Wu)....rather they trace more directly to Old Chinese due to wars/migrations from central plains during the three kingdoms era....and for various reasons resisting middle Chinese phase the others went through. They retain a larger amount of phonology found in Old chinese....absent in the rest.

 

[Nilgiri]

My wife gave me her Tiger Balm.... Apparently high intensity dancing can be painful if surface is not as forgiving.

View attachment 9357

I do not know if it works on headache or not... but smell is intoxicating... For the heck of it I just apply it a little bit on near forehead... Smells and sensation is very calming.

That stuff has worked like a charm so many times in my life
I have early memories of visiting tiger balm gardens in HK (part of the founders larger plot of land they developed next to a villa) with my mom one weekend. We lost our way, but a kind boy scout helped us get our bearings to it

In it was the first time I saw the "laughing Buddha", very popular in China,....there was a great collection of various Chinese mythology scenes and statues too etc

That has been my fondest version of the Buddha since....i have since associated the laughing Buddha with tiger balm (and its therapeutic smell heh)

They got rid of most of that picturesque garden in 2004 though to make way for more mundane buildings (kept the villa as museum though), too bad.

I have been to the one in Singapore too, which Singapore still retains.

The founders i.e Aw Boon brothers were Chinese Hakka brothers originally from Burma...were involved in various philanthropy and establishment of a major Tong* as well from the fortune they got from their miracle balm (with humble origins).

Tiger balm, pretty much my whole immediate family swears by it.

@Fatman17

*Tongs (meeting halls, guilds, community center etc) themselves are very interesting story. Many were precursors to large corporations and conglomerates in East Asia and beyond.

 

[VersusChristi]

Tiger balm, pretty much my whole immediate family swears by it.

I just love its smell and sensation. Everything is secondry for me. Its like a drug. Hopefully I do not get addicted.

 

[Fatman17]

That stuff has worked like a charm so many times in my life
I have early memories of visiting tiger balm gardens in HK (part of the founders larger plot of land they developed next to a villa) with my mom one weekend. We lost our way, but a kind boy scout helped us get our bearings to it

In it was the first time I saw the "laughing Buddha", very popular in China,....there was a great collection of various Chinese mythology scenes and statues too etc

That has been my fondest version of the Buddha since....i have since associated the laughing Buddha with tiger balm (and its therapeutic smell heh)

They got rid of most of that picturesque garden in 2004 though to make way for more mundane buildings (kept the villa as museum though), too bad.

I have been to the one in Singapore too, which Singapore still retains.

The founders i.e Aw Boon brothers were Chinese Hakka brothers originally from Burma...were involved in various philanthropy and establishment of a major Tong* as well from the fortune they got from their miracle balm (with humble origins).

Tiger balm, pretty much my whole immediate family swears by it.

@Fatman17

*Tongs (meeting halls, guilds, community center etc) themselves are very interesting story. Many were precursors to large corporations and conglomerates in East Asia and beyond.

Remember the credit card commercial "don't leave home without it ". Well Tiger balm is exactly that in my family.
I went for the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca in 2012 and had a calf strain which made it difficult for me to walk. Tiger balm did the trick. I applied it every night and within days the pain receded to a comfortable level and disappeared in a couple of weeks. I take this balm every time I travel.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good riddance, he was a reddit troll with a fake online persona designed to troll.

How do you people make out so much about individual members?
I know only a handful, after having been a member for 15 years.

 

[retaxis]

India buys a lot of chinese stuff

China ignores dalai lama and does not help indian insurgents like maoists/manipuris etc

Thats the deal they have

 

[abdulhaadi1988]

@RescueRanger @Waz

Why was my reply deleted and not this?

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger @Waz

Why was my reply deleted and not this?

Don’t mention members from past forums here. Do not engage in attacking, slandering or insulting previous members. Any moderation queries should be directed to admin in the management section.

 

[VCheng]

Please report your complaints to the management and do not argue here. Thank you.