India - China Relations

1989 was a watershed time, Tiananmen crackdown shaped China's fast development for the last 30 years, in 1989 China's total GDP was about the same as India's and much lower than India per capita wise.

In 1989, China was a much poorer country than India

_20230604230050-png.932953

_20230604230110-png.932954
 
1989 was a watershed time, Tiananmen crackdown shaped China's fast development for the last 30 years, in 1989 China's total GDP was about the same as India's and much lower than India per capita wise.

In 1989, China was a much poorer country than India

_20230604230050-png.932953

_20230604230110-png.932954

That was indeed a tectonic moment in our lifetimes.

I had just joined medical college. When images of the tank man were beamed across the earth.

Cheers, Doc
 
I'm not an expert on India-China relationship but I'm a expert tourist to both HK and the mainland. The most significant difference in pre and post handover HK was/ is the attitude of the HK-ers towards the mainland and its people. My main interaction was with HK Taxi drivers and young people and the majority of this segment view the handover to China very negatively. The older people seem to be less concerned about the political change in HK politics. I would go so far to say that they might be happy in a covertly way.
In mainland China it is generally very difficult to talk about politics and then there is the language issue.
For a tourist like me l love HK whether its pre or post handover. Hopefully it stays that way.
It's all about eduction and media influence, the massive anti China education and media influence in the past 20 years took a heavy toll on Hong kong youngsters. The massive riots were the direct result of it.
Now things are getting much better after now laws and leaders being installed in Hong kong.

Hong kong's GDP was doubled after the 1997 takeover and per capita wise has left its former master UK far behind.

After Hong kong was handed over to China in 1997 by UK, its GDP has been more than doubled

1997
Hong kong GDP per capita $27,330
UK GDP per capita $26,734

2020
Hong kong GDP per capita $46,707
UK GDP per capita $40,358
 
That was indeed a tectonic moment in our lifetimes.

I had just joined medical college. When images of the tank man were beamed across the earth.

Cheers, Doc
Back then maybe 70-80% of the population supported the protestors, now probably less than 1%, cause after these many years, the Chinese people witnessed what happened both in China and around the world.

Months after Tiananmen, the same broke out in USSR which was dozens of times richer than China, and two countries embarked in two completely different development routes.
maxresdefault-3-jpg.5952
 
A wasted potential over a non existent threat and thereby allowing the west to take advantage of the situation. But there is still time.
 
Unfortunately an impression ICS grown and continues to grow that China's internal condition has become increasingly dominated by the rule of an autocrat who has scrapped those safeguards that protected the country from the misrule that had been seen earlier.

A dozen flattering picture spreads and floods of self praise will not wipe out such impressions.

However there is always hope of a more sincere engagement.
Back then maybe 70-80% of the population supported the protestors, now probably less than 1%, cause after these many years, the Chinese people witnessed what happened both in China and around the world.

Months after Tiananmen, the same broke out in USSR which was dozens of times richer than China, and two countries embarked in two completely different development routes.
maxresdefault-3-jpg.5952
 
Unfortunately an impression ICS grown and continues to grow that China's internal condition has become increasingly dominated by the rule of an autocrat who has scrapped those safeguards that protected the country from the misrule that had been seen earlier.

A dozen flattering picture spreads and floods of self praise will not wipe out such impressions.

However there is always hope of a more sincere engagement.
If you read Chinese history and learn Chinese culture you should know that we Chinese people always prefer law and order, alway hate chaos and infightings. I m not sure about you Indian mentality, but the current system, autocratic or not, suits Chinese ways of management well, this is why the great majority of the population still support it.
If a government can keep a massive nation growing double digits for 2 decades, there must be something right about it.
We Chinese are result oriented people, whoever brings the result will get the people's support.
We are not interested in badmouthing the government just for being able to do so,cause we know that brings no positive results, it's always easy to blame others, but if you are in their shoes, you are most probably won't be any better, Chinese public do offer constructive criticism to the government but rarely meaningless finger pointing.
 
I'm not an expert on India-China relationship but I'm a expert tourist to both HK and the mainland. The most significant difference in pre and post handover HK was/ is the attitude of the HK-ers towards the mainland and its people. My main interaction was with HK Taxi drivers and young people and the majority of this segment view the handover to China very negatively. The older people seem to be less concerned about the political change in HK politics. I would go so far to say that they might be happy in a covertly way.
In mainland China it is generally very difficult to talk about politics and then there is the language issue.
For a tourist like me l love HK whether its pre or post handover. Hopefully it stays that way.

HK is no stranger to generalised phenomenon of age leading to higher social conservatism formed etc. Things that build up with experience and passage of time. Lot of provisioning (for old age) after all was and is done on socially conservative norms like family, savings (personal, pension from govt)....your value to others by memories and also the legacy and larger collective nation that will have to keep these going (and in Chinese case, the largest collective nation of the Chinese people is the PRC)....and resist counterforces.

When you are younger and have much more life ahead of you, one is generally more socially liberal too. You are figuring things out lot more, lot of trial and error....active employment, making common cause with peers on issues you hold dear that you want to see changed (since so much time ahead of you to see results etc).

There are of course nuances and exceptions, but this general trend I see in every society.
 
HK is no stranger to generalised phenomenon of age leading to higher social conservatism formed etc. Things that build up with experience and passage of time. Lot of provisioning (for old age) after all was and is done on socially conservative norms like family, savings (personal, pension from govt)....your value to others by memories and also the legacy and larger collective nation that will have to keep these going (and in Chinese case, the largest collective nation of the Chinese people is the PRC)....and resist counterforces.

When you are younger and have much more life ahead of you, one is generally more socially liberal too. You are figuring things out lot more, lot of trial and error....active employment, making common cause with peers on issues you hold dear that you want to see changed (since so much time ahead of you to see results etc).

There are of course nuances and exceptions, but this general trend I see in every society.

Isn’t the old saying something like this:

If one is not a liberal when young one doesn’t have a heart but if one is not a conservative when older then one definitely doesn’t have a brain.

I wonder what that means. 😁
 
You may well be right. I will go with @Nilgiri's vivid reconstruction of the Hakka, for instance, and the civil churn in China. Let's hear him out.

Yes but some basic context would be good.

Not everyone who is interested in China is a longtime Sinophile.

@Nilgiri

Cheers, Doc

I'll get into all of it in leisurely pace as time permits.

The Hakka are just one story of many other stories of trial and tribulation within China.

The context for doc, is one he knows all too well in end....theology, ideology, identity etc.

These occupy and jostle for same space deep down in the psyche search for the deep fundament of reality....recognition of ones own mortal limited time and how then to borrow from the much larger collective time of others before you. How you prioritise this process determines much of "you" in the end. A society is the larger form collective of this happening as it does....what is transmitted what is resisted and pushed back on. The forces governing this....as the human mind, its final summed integral with its factors and coefficients..... is the most powerful consequential resource to human life, society and history.

This is exactly why one Turkish friend of mine explained just why "Marxism" and "Islamism" compete for the exact same mindspace/psyche i.e an example of a (elder metaphysical) theology and neo-theology (one of materialism and as non-metaphysical as possible) being something of matter and antimatter....one must prevail as the "root" and by having larger amount of it imposed.

Doc, yours is extreme distilled unique case (the Parsi story), but larger populations have various tiers of this always going on in the mix....always.

These matters explain spawning of social angst and coercion/tension, wars, evictions, migrations, grievances, redemptions and so on....and all the relative stasis occupying time in between (to reflect, gather, deploy) given the size of whats at hand and whats at stake to each situation and perception.

You peer from the outside at your own dear people doc, just like my Chinese friend did for his homeland "turned". You do so on theological basis, he does so on ideological basis. The costs imposed, the return you want to see. Names change from place to place, timescales, intensities and starkness of the divides vary in breadth and depth. But there are parallels connecting them deep down.

Heck Jung even went so far as to say there are at even deeper layer preset archetypes from the human reality basic hardwiring (from things such as mortality, fear, love) rather than complete blank slate tabula rasa at birth.

Whatever one's position on this, it all inevitably transmits to other domains in the human psyche formed above it.

This is the deepest strata and core, then you start to understand civilisation (as a whole) and then specific civilisations like Chinese, Indian and Persian and many others, largely pertaining to one's circumstances. This is the underlying context I base things on these days for the human domain....rather than get swept away too much from whats at the very outermost layers.
 
@Nilgiri
Pleej riplai.
44.9%?
56.666 recurring?
81%?
Precision, please.
Made up figures are, Of course, acceptable.

Eh, its right there in the newsweek article, the other articles also might have context within them too:

A note accompanying the poll results offers a disclaimer, stating that "in authoritarian countries, positive perceptions might result from different conceptions of democracy, high levels of government satisfaction, or fear of speaking out against the government."

For most part, my interaction in this forum will be largely limited to getting to new places of understanding/perspective worthies can give me.

Or bring worthies likewise to new places of understanding/perspective I can provide to them.

Long had my fill of quantitative one-liner blowhards....BJP, CCP or whichever other ABC snot apparatchik online miasma.

Powders all expended on those and very little left to spare. Anything interesting/new that arises in long form convo on this thread from them, I'll see to it then....but only then.

Forgot if it was jhungary that I had a chuckle with about with the "this class is likely a waste of your time, but infinitely worse my time" the way Nash (russel crowe) says that as he scribbled a vectorspace on the board.

Jhungary (who knew many parts of "off the beaten path" HK in great detail that surprised me) had some infinite amount of patience/persistence compared to me. He even gave one of these appratchiks his phone number (work phone in aussie police dept lol iirc) when they kept yabbering on for months that he isn't really Chinese....and they actually called him up and had to eat crow on that. So funny. Didnt matter, they were back to the same insinuations shortly afterwards anyway. Who knows what else went down, this was just one small part I saw heh....and really it explained to me the futility of certain things.
 
It's all about eduction and media influence, the massive anti China education and media influence in the past 20 years took a heavy toll on Hong kong youngsters. The massive riots were the direct result of it.
Now things are getting much better after now laws and leaders being installed in Hong kong.

Hong kong's GDP was doubled after the 1997 takeover and per capita wise has left its former master UK far behind.

After Hong kong was handed over to China in 1997 by UK, its GDP has been more than doubled

1997
Hong kong GDP per capita $27,330
UK GDP per capita $26,734

2020
Hong kong GDP per capita $46,707
UK GDP per capita $40,358

Dude, I enjoy reading many of your threads/posts, but I think the intent here was to discuss China/India relations, or anything comparative. You seem to be just bombarding it with more of the same stuff we can just read in your various threads, it seems unfair, since I don't think that was the original intention of @Nilgiri
 
Dude, I enjoy reading many of your threads/posts, but I think the intent here was to discuss China/India relations, or anything comparative. You seem to be just bombarding it with more of the same stuff we can just read in your various threads, it seems unfair, since I don't think that was the original intention of @Nilgiri

It can only do what it’s programmed to do.
 
Dude, I enjoy reading many of your threads/posts, but I think the intent here was to discuss China/India relations, or anything comparative. You seem to be just bombarding it with more of the same stuff we can just read in your various threads, it seems unfair, since I don't think that was the original intention of @Nilgiri
Some guys do the same bombarding on China too, didn't you notice?
 
It can only do what it’s programmed to do.
When I debate with you, I find you are just programmed by typical western mindset, very narrow and one sided, don't really have your own ideas and thoughts, that is why you just run out of arguement with less than 5 posts in most cases.
 

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