Indian Navy approves Mazagon Dock to build 6 submarines with German collaboration

[Circadian Rhythm]

If we are being fair I would argue Indian procurement in the 70s and 80s was actually very good. In fact many of the equipment India evaluated and purchases was then bought by other nations

Quick purchases of both Eastern and Western systems (Mirage 2000 v MIG-29, Kilo v Type 209) and in many cases full production capability by HAL and Mazagon.

I think this changed in the 90s and 2000s

You are partially Right ️

70s was a completely No or Zero procurement because after 1971
There was No threat to India

Secondly we had internal economic problems ie Inflation and 3 percent growth which meant No money with th Govt

All this changed in the 80s After Russian invasion of Afghanistan and Huge US Aid to Pakistan

90s was also a.Slow decade because of Pressler Amendment and No US aid to Pakistan

Then after 2000 AD with economy becoming better There were more resources regularly and steadily available

80s were desperate Times

No money , US was an enemy
And Pakistan receiving Huge Aid

As a Young Man I remember we were introduced to New Words
Like

Billions of Dollars of Aid And F 16s ,Mirage 2000 ,MiG 29

There was ,
NO TV Or Internet ,So We grabbed Magazines which came once in 15 days to understand in depth what is.really going on

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Never say never for Indian defence procurement!

Let ONE single naval incidence happen. May be sinking of an Indian patrol boat by Pakistan or Hezbullah and you will see Indian Navy buying EVERY darn Russian sub they can lay their hands on.

Remember panic buying of Russian A2A missiles in 2019? Anything and everthing was bought using emergency route. Heck radios from Israel were bought in a hurry.

It depends on whether they are providing one of the best available weapons!

If yes, then why not?

Recently India only purchased S400 missile defence systems because it is one of the best.

While evaluating other weapons,, - the best weapons available from other sources. So it is the main reason we are not buying from Russia.

Example - Akula Submarine: - any day India will be happy to take it on lease because it is still one of the best SSN submarines available outside of the USA.

 

[onlinpunit]

So we are Buying a new type of Submarine ? Makes no sense.
Buying another batch of Scorpion was better IMO.

 

[MirageBlue]

As it turns out, the news reported earlier was a little misleading. While the Spanish S-80 offering is not ruled out, it was "far behind" the TKMS offering, primarily due to a proven sea-going AIP.

 

[MirageBlue]

So we are Buying a new type of Submarine ? Makes no sense.
Buying another batch of Scorpion was better IMO.

We are going ahead with 3 more Scorpenes with indigenous AIP from DRDO. There'll be a total of 9.

 

[onlinpunit]

We are going ahead with 3 more Scorpenes with indigenous AIP from DRDO. There'll be a total of 9.

We could have increased the number to 15-20.
Buying a completely different submarine and then setting up manufacturing, logistic , training and maintenance facilities makes little sense.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

We could have increased the number to 15-20.
Buying a completely different submarine and then setting up manufacturing, logistic , training and maintenance facilities makes little sense.

Scorpene is not technically advanced as new boats

We have had good experiences with U209 boats, if corruption had not caused the issue - we might have more than 6+ U209 boats in our inventory

 

[MirageBlue]

We could have increased the number to 15-20.
Buying a completely different submarine and then setting up manufacturing, logistic , training and maintenance facilities makes little sense.

No it makes sense. The new designs on offer are already more modern than the Scorpene is as of today.

For e.g. Sonar stealth shaping is now a design consideration for the Type-214 based design that TKMS is offering. Was it a factor when Scorpene was designed? No.

Technology keeps moving on. The timelines for building subs is so long that if try to stick to one design, even with some changes to the internal systems, it isn't going to be the most modern one available.

Besides, P-75I was supposed to leverage another shipyard, not just keep giving all sub orders to MDL. But as things have panned out, TKMS partnered with MDL and their offering is superior to the S-80 offering from Navantia and L&T.

 

[onlinpunit]

Scorpene is not technically advanced as new boats

We have had good experiences with U209 boats, if corruption had not caused the issue - we might have more than 6+ U209 boats in our inventory

Are they better than the chinese one ? Relying on Germans is a big mistake.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Are they better than the chinese one ? Relying on Germans is a big mistake.

Details of Chinese submarines are not openly available to the public.

Most believe that usually upgraded russian technology by indigenously and manufacturing.

Just a example - india changed the radar, seekers and engine of brahmos missile... But it's licence OEM product but Chinese do from scratch - no OEM get involved but fundamentals are the same.....

It is commonly believed that western technologies in defence are better than Chinese and Russian

 

[onlinpunit]

Details of Chinese submarines are not openly available to the public.

Most believe that usually upgraded russian technology by indigenously and manufacturing.

Just a example - india changed the radar, seekers and engine of brahmos missile... But it's licence OEM product but Chinese do from scratch - no OEM get involved but fundamentals are the same.....

It is commonly believed that western technologies in defence are better than Chinese and Russian

My concern is the unreliability of Germans. French on the other hand are much better understanding of indian.
So if the scorpions are good enough we should go for it.

 

[kmc_chacko]

We could have increased the number to 15-20.
Buying a completely different submarine and then setting up manufacturing, logistic , training and maintenance facilities makes little sense.

while P75 & P75I running, both MDL & LT will invest towards indigenous SSK project

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

My concern is the unreliability of Germans. French on the other hand are much better understanding of indian.
So if the scorpions are good enough we should go for it.

Agreed, but we are using U209 and didn't face any challenges from the German side.

And most likely - it will be the last imported diesel submarine. Except 3 Scorpene submarines

 

[Oscar]

My concern is the unreliability of Germans. French on the other hand are much better understanding of indian.
So if the scorpions are good enough we should go for it.

You’re a democracy and so long as you do not put nukes on the sub Germany has zero issues.

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

You’re a democracy and so long as you do not put nukes on the sub Germany has zero issues.

We are moving towards operationalising SLCMs

P 75 I subs will also be carrying SLCMs launched from Torpedo Tubes

Now who will come and check the Warhead during.War time

By the Way During negotiations with GE for LCA engine , this issue had cropped up ie Nuclear delivery role

We didn't bend to US conditions

Because that would have meant Intrusive Inspections

We can't allow any inspection after sale is concluded