Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Flames In The Desert]

$3 billions for walls , thanks Obama and India

Clearly they had and have a road map for heavy fighter jets.

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rd-33 and we need a new platform other than f-4 design !

really rd-33 ????View attachment 38346

Would you prefer the TF-30?
Well.....I guess the other option would be building one from scratch ala the kaveri,or going the WS-10 route and using the core of a commercial high bypass turbofan,but both of these options would take a sh!tload of time and money,not to mention the potential risk of failure.
I suppose one could look at the D-30....
Or maybe the,not quite as reliably unreliable as they used to be,russians will sell iran a production license for the AL-31
Ultimately its all a matter of making the best of what you`ve got at your disposal.
So....yeah,RD-33 or D-30,which would you pick..?

 

[Flames In The Desert]

RD-33 is a great engine and would be an incredible achievement by Iran

large turbofan jet engines are among the hardest technical challenges any country can embark on

India spent hundreds of millions on developing the "Kaveri engine project" (a turbofan engine in a similar class to the RD-33) and effectively admitted defeat after 20 years of development.

The other option would be going the chinese WS-10 route,but once again that comes with a lot of cost involved,both in time and money,and with no guarantee of success.

 

[Persian Gulf]

The other option would be going the chinese WS-10 route,but once again that comes with a lot of cost involved,both in time and money,and with no guarantee of success.

to me it's between al-31 and rd-33

ws-10 route is not really feasible for Iran, it took China decades and likely billions of $ to reach success with that and iran doesn't have the time or money for that

 

[Hack-Hook]

$3 billions for walls , thanks Obama and India

Clearly they had and have a road map for heavy fighter jets.

---

rd-33 and we need a new platform other than f-4 design !

really rd-33 ????View attachment 38346

rd-33 would be great engine for any Iran domestic aircraft production, a single rd-33 even without afterburner can give kowsar super cruise ability

 

[Hack-Hook]

to me it's between al-31 and rd-33

ws-10 route is not really feasible for Iran, it took China decades and likely billions of $ to reach success with that and iran doesn't have the time or money for that

i hope its rd-33, al-31 is too big for any aircraft Iran can hope to produce in near future and is perfect for a light to medium aircraft in both single and double configuration

 

[Persian Gulf]

i hope its rd-33, al-31 is too big for any aircraft Iran can hope to produce in near future and is perfect for a light to medium aircraft in both single and double configuration

AL-31 has much more room for growth but it's a bit unrealistic to think Iran can go from playing with F-5 copies to a 5G fighter jet so for now RD-33 is a solid option

 

[Immortals]

RD-33 doesn’t make cost sense in the long run. I think Iran will go for AL-31 class. Remember when I said this.

These engines Iran builds are very expensive because they never reach economies of scale, they are always built in small scale. It’s one reason supercars like Buggatti are actually loses for companies. They are effectively a form of advertisement due to their low production units each year and high labor costs and material costs they lose money on each Buggati they sell.

I wouldn’t be surprised if OWJ engine costs 2-3x the western counterpart (when including R&D costs).

American was able to reduce costs of F-35 program by allowing other countries to share the burden of production of parts and by selling the the jets for a large profit margin to other nations.

For any succesful Iranian fighter jet you would need the ability to export it to friendly countries (Iraq, Armenia, African countries, maybe one day Syria, Venezuela, Tajikstan, North Korea, etc etc) to recoup some of the costs.

I still think if Putin takes his head out of his ass and partners strategically with Iran, that they could do wonderful things on SU-75 as a joint project.

It’s a shame, if Russia-China partnered with Iran and created a true iron clad alliance they could push back Western empire to the brink of collapse. Instead China is a lone wolf. Russia is a lone wolf, and like lone wolves they will die alone to a pack of savages.

Theoretical Global Axis of Resistance
————————-

• Iran & the allied foreign legions
• Russia & Belarus
• China
• North Korea

Potential additions

• Turkey (exiting NATO, largest standing army in NATO)
• Qatar (aligning with Iran)
• Pakistan (aligning with China against India)

This axis would have the largest combined standing army in the world. With the top 3 natural gas reserve countries (Russia/Iran/Qatar) and 2 of the top 5 oil reserve countries (Russia/Iran) providing the fuel for the war machine.


It’s a shame, they’d rather sit in the world of the white Anglo-Saxon man who has had a grip on world order since the Roman Empire and who will always see them as inferior races.

 

[Cancerous Tumor]

Would you prefer the TF-30?
Well.....I guess the other option would be building one from scratch ala the kaveri,or going the WS-10 route and using the core of a commercial high bypass turbofan,but both of these options would take a sh!tload of time and money,not to mention the potential risk of failure.
I suppose one could look at the D-30....
Or maybe the,not quite as reliably unreliable as they used to be,russians will sell iran a production license for the AL-31
Ultimately its all a matter of making the best of what you`ve got at your disposal.
So....yeah,RD-33 or D-30,which would you pick..?

1.Unrealistic
.

2.Realistic
I'm saying it by having mindset on next possible option after domestic F-5 production so knowledge and experience wise the next best option would be F-4 .

if we go for F-4 design vs other options (possible rd-33)

Nostalgic ( 999% factor)
Available manpower (1%)
Pilot Training ( 1%)
No need for new R&D process (1%)
Maintenance and repair (1%)

I'm not that greedy F-4 makes sense for picking budget friendly option of F-4 then F-16 or F-18

Budget friendly shopping option :

Su-30 ( I think it has India problem )

RD-33 is a great engine and would be an incredible achievement by Iran

large turbofan jet engines are among the hardest technical challenges any country can embark on

can economy back it up ?

New engine
New platform

in these days ..

India spent hundreds of millions on developing the "Kaveri engine project" (a turbofan engine in a similar class to the RD-33) and effectively admitted defeat after 20 years of development.

Indeed rd-33 is great.

I was referring to conditions of eastern parts of Iran and the news that we heard about building new wall there at the cost of $3 billions. these days India is related to many places and situations ...

 

[Immortals]

2.Realistic
I'm saying it by having mindset on next possible option after domestic F-5 production so knowledge and experience wise the next best option would be F-4 .

Bro what? F-4 is a flying cow and bomb truck. Iran needs a fast agile interceptor to defend its airspace.

F-4 is an even worse plane than F-5 to reverse engineer.

if we go for F-4 design vs other options (possible rd-33)

An F-4 has an RCS of 6m2 unloaded and leaks radiation (heat, engine, radar). Might as well just schedule the pilots funeral when he takes off.

I'm not that greedy F-4 makes sense for picking budget friendly option of F-4 then F-16 or F-18

It’s nothing like the other 2 planes

Budget friendly shopping option :

Su-30 ( I think it has India problem )

India has over 300+ they don’t have a problem. They just can’t upgrade their own like the Chinese did. China also produces its own since they reverse engineered the plane back in SU-27 days and pissed Russia off.

can economy back it up ?

We send billion+ per year to Hezbollah, Houthi’s, Hamas, Iraqi + $1B a year in operating costs having 3,000+ IRGC stationed in Syria plus repairing all the damage Israeli airstrikes do.

So yes we can afford it, especially once our global arms sale reach higher and higher numbers. Iran will be a top 5 arms exporter by 2030 bringing in 10B+ a year in additional revenue.

Indeed rd-33 is great.

RD-33 was great when it was scheduled to power Shafagh project in 2003. It’s been 20 years since. While it’s a great engine compared to J-85 and J-79, it’s not the basis of a future Iranian fighter jet program unless Iran plans to stay strictly in the light-medium fighter class till 2050. I hope not. Which I don’t see since Iran doesn’t look favorably at multi role planes like F-16/F-35/etc and sees them as waste of money and would rather rely on missiles for delivering munitions.

Iran knows it’s biggest need is something that can replace the F-14 and guard the skies. Iran still remembers back in 1960’s when Soviet MIGs would violate their airspace routinely and nothing Iran had could catch them in time or keep up.

You do not want to be in that situation again.

 

[Flames In The Desert]

i hope its rd-33, al-31 is too big for any aircraft Iran can hope to produce in near future and is perfect for a light to medium aircraft in both single and double configuration

You`d also have the additional option of re-engining the F-1 fleet [with some minor mods to the rd-33s external ancillaries],not only would this greatly improve performance,but it would also reduce the logistics burden on the iriaf,that by itself would be a big plus.

 

[Cancerous Tumor]

Bro what? F-4 is a flying cow and bomb truck. Iran needs a fast agile interceptor to defend its airspace.

(budget friendly development )From F-5 next step would be F-4 since it's been working so far.

I think we need a little more than agile interceptors vs air forces around us so let's skip here

F-4 is an even worse plane than F-5 to reverse engineer.

any more budget friendly option ? or you may build ~200 F-5s with that budget ($3 billion )which is not that bad lol

An F-4 has an RCS of 6m2 unloaded and leaks radiation (heat, engine, radar). Might as well just schedule the pilots funeral when he takes off.



It’s nothing like the other 2 planes

In my opinion interceptor route is not worth it with low budget.

India has over 300+ they don’t have a problem.

India is prime costumer of Su-30 and whole sale buyer which they have unfriendly relationship with dear Pakistan and we have friendly relationship with Pakistan.On the other hand I wanted to buy coca-cola without sandwich from Russia so that is why I call it India problem ...

RD-33 was great when it was scheduled to power Shafagh project in 2003. It’s been 20 years since. While it’s a great engine compared to J-85 and J-79,

We have J85 at home and maybe J79 but I don't think we have RD33 so back to step 2.

Iran knows it’s biggest need is something that can replace the F-14 and guard the skies. Iran still remembers back in 1960’s when Soviet MIGs would violate their airspace routinely and nothing Iran had could catch them in time or keep up.

So you have to choose here either go interceptor route and ignore domestic production then buy off the shelf

or go for domestic production route which it seems is less popular these days

 

[GoMig-21]

It's worth noting that L-band is also a common frequency range for IFF systems.

That was a hell of a read! Some great info there.
Dumbed down just enough so you don't actually need a degree in astrophysics and aeronautical engineering to understand 1/3 of it lol!

I'm not sure those arrays on the wing leading edge - especially being only a single row - would be enough for detecting aircraft outside of an IFF an ECM system (I say detecting "outside" of those because for example in the analogue F-14 it's possible in certain cases to detect aircraft with the IFF before the main radar. But you can't do much with that information as it's literally just a ping).

So I dug in a little deeper and found out that in fact the wing arrays are AESA radars complementing both, the IRBIS-E in the Su-35S and the N036 AESA radar in the Su-57.

According to Tikhomirov NIIP Research Institute which runs the Almaz-Antey Air and Space Defense Corporation which developed these onboard phased array radars, the AESA wing arrays are AESA radars and were tested on both, the Su-35S and Su-57.

According to Yuri Bely, in 2016 an unprecedented volume of test flights was carried out to test the latest Tikhomirov radars - a total of more than 370 flights, including more than a hundred on fifth-generation T-50 aircraft with a multifunctional electronic system based on AESA and more than 170 on Su-35S fighters with Irbis radar with phased array.

This part suggests that the three elements we thought are part of the arrays (radar, ECM & IFF) are actually separate, and that the arrays function strictly as AESA radars.

In addition, by about the middle of the year, we must complete interdepartmental tests of our complex, which are carried out on component parts (the radar itself, the electronic countermeasures system, the identification system, etc.) on the stands at our institute and at the subcontractors," said Yuri Bely.

Then there is this release from NIIP itself. It's in Russian but if offers a translation in English. I'll copy/paste the pertaining parts.

In 2016-2017, five more prototypes of the Su-57 joined the tests, and the final three were already equipped with a full set of multifunctional radar systems, including, in addition to the front, two side and two wing AESAs.

Granted they're referring to the Su-57 here, but according to the first source they're the same exact arrays and were in fact tested on both platforms, 100+ times on the Su-57 and close to 270 on the Su-35S.

The first section above mentions how they're separate components and we can see here that the IFF unit (item 4283) is separate from the arrays and is either the processing unit or possibly the receiver/transponder.



So let's go Iran, go get those damn Su-35's!

 

[vmro]

RD-33 doesn’t make cost sense in the long run. I think Iran will go for AL-31 class. Remember when I said this.

These engines Iran builds are very expensive because they never reach economies of scale, they are always built in small scale. It’s one reason supercars like Buggatti are actually loses for companies. They are effectively a form of advertisement due to their low production units each year and high labor costs and material costs they lose money on each Buggati they sell.

I wouldn’t be surprised if OWJ engine costs 2-3x the western counterpart (when including R&D costs).

American was able to reduce costs of F-35 program by allowing other countries to share the burden of production of parts and by selling the the jets for a large profit margin to other nations.

For any succesful Iranian fighter jet you would need the ability to export it to friendly countries (Iraq, Armenia, African countries, maybe one day Syria, Venezuela, Tajikstan, North Korea, etc etc) to recoup some of the costs.

I still think if Putin takes his head out of his ass and partners strategically with Iran, that they could do wonderful things on SU-75 as a joint project.

It’s a shame, if Russia-China partnered with Iran and created a true iron clad alliance they could push back Western empire to the brink of collapse. Instead China is a lone wolf. Russia is a lone wolf, and like lone wolves they will die alone to a pack of savages.

Theoretical Global Axis of Resistance
————————-

• Iran & the allied foreign legions
• Russia & Belarus
• China
• North Korea

Potential additions

• Turkey (exiting NATO, largest standing army in NATO)
• Qatar (aligning with Iran)
• Pakistan (aligning with China against India)

This axis would have the largest combined standing army in the world. With the top 3 natural gas reserve countries (Russia/Iran/Qatar) and 2 of the top 5 oil reserve countries (Russia/Iran) providing the fuel for the war machine.
It’s a shame, they’d rather sit in the world of the white Anglo-Saxon man who has had a grip on world order since the Roman Empire and who will always see them as inferior races.

Are you sure??? There is ongoing conflict in Africa where Russia/Iran are taking control over some neo-colonial regimes, war of attrition in Ukraine where nato is trapped in useless spending, and this conflict in Palestina is reshaping the course of the next period...i mean, Israeli regime is going to take the place of sadam hussein regime during occupation of Kuwait, global reaction will be forced to take place...

 

[GoMig-21]

One thing about IBRIS-E that you must consider is that 400km range is only when the radar search a field of 10 degree by 10 degree

Let's assume that article is correct and the FOV beam is only 10° at 350km or even 400km; that 10° beam is still scanning an entire 120° total FOV. That's why that article is a bit deceiving. The reason being is that the radar doesn't only scan in one method, but 2. From the embedded source:

The IRBIS-E was developed by the V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production as an X-waveband multi role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit turns the antenna mechanically to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll, while the antenna device scans using an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors exceeding 60°. By using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam reaches to 120° - a capability few fighters can boast.

By combining both methods of scanning, the mechanical and electronic, it reaches a total beam angle of 120°.

It also neglects to mention anything about the AESA arrays that supplement the IRBIS-E nor the IRIST SAT which also assists in target detection.

Here's another deceiving element to that article, this picture here where they claim the dial gauges are "metered analogue temperature & coolant gauges" for the IRBIS-E but notice where this is? It's in a testing facility where they're using those gauges to test the temperature and cooling aspects of the radar loool. This isn't the radar when it's in the aircraft? The dish barely fits in the aircraft's huge radome and look at that bracket holding the radar from top to the bottom where the gauges are. That's taller than the inside of the Su-35's radome. Those are only testing gauges as evidenced by where that radar is displayed.



This is the radar mounted in the Su-35's radome. Notice the mechanical angle of the dish? But more important, the size in relation to the radome.



Not even close to the one in the testing pic. And see how tight it fits in there? No room for those guages and do you see any gauges? Of course not because why the hell would you need gauges there anyway when you can never see them only when the radom is open which is rarely LOL! Those were testing gauges only. That article is really biased wow!

It conveniently ignores the AESA arrays and touts the Viper's A/N-APG-83's AESA prowess & range while knocking the IRBIS-E's range by telling half-truths about the 10° beam angle FOV and here's another one:

In this picture it claims the following absolute shameful lie & deception:

According to HAL's upgrade package proposal to IAF's Su-30MKI, the IRBIS-E's flight test video where it allegedly detected a single target from 268km but wasn't able to get a track until 100km - all the while having just a single target to track.



Guess what, Hack Hook? India's Su-30MKI has the BARS radar, not the ERBIS-E! So why on earth would HAL be making a recommendation for improving the BARS radar using the IRBIS-E? Does that make any sense to you at all? Please be honest LOL!!! It's craaaaaaaaaazzzzyyyy how anti-Russian some of these outfits are. That's fine if the ones writing these sources have a certain bias (heck we all do to a certain point) and if they don't like Russia and want to pump up the US & the west that's also fine. But make an effort to bring honest information. Bring legitimate arguments but don't bring filthy lies, right? lol

in real scenario when the radar is in search mode the range shrink to around 200km

I think we've proved that to be completely incorrect.

show me some of those article the only thing i have to go with is our mig-29 and their radar is literally junk I also knew about su-35 FLIR and i knew its also junk(the infrared seeker in our heat seeking missile is more advanced) , so please prove me I'm wrong about IBRIS-E

Well those MiG-29s in the IRIAF are relatively old, and so are their radars. The same could be said about any other older radars & systems. There has been tremendous improvements and developments since.

by what i heard the electric warfare and jamming enemy radars for su-35 come from this AESA radar not Ibris-e

I think the major unit on the Su-35S that provides the ultimate EW and especially jamming are the Khibiny wingtip pods. Those are integral to the Su-35S as you well know. So if Iran would be getting these, they will have decided on how many of them will carry and operate the wingtip pods to have maximum jamming and EW capability within a flying group of aircraft. Even though they are most likely removable and the missile rails can be affixed instead (or vice-versa), it appears they keep dedicated aircraft supporting the khibiny pods at all times. Just like they do in Russia and just like they were ordered for Egypt and certainly for Iran.

Su-35S Electronic Warfare & Self Protection Systems

The Su-35S features a robust ECM suite designed to defeat and delay detection across the electromagnetic spectrum including the CKBA L150-35 Pastel RWR, KNIRTI L265M10R Khibiny-M ECM suite, NPK SSP ultraviolet missile approach warning system (MAWS), and six 14-round UV-50 decoy dispensers.[11] These systems complement one another to significantly enhance the Su-35S’ survivability against radar and IR guided AAMs.

If you click on the literature above, it'll take you to the article which has much more detail on the frequency bands the pods work in and against and all sorts of other details such as their effectiveness against the AIM-120's probability of kill. Also on specifics regarding the ERBIS-E. And it's totally unbiased & quite neutral as it also lists the Su-35S's shortcoming. It's not all hunky dory and strawberries & cream and all that mumbo jumbo jive. The article's from American Innovation which is part of a blogspot with references from Janes Defense, Sipri Arms data base which from everything I've read through them has been spot on. So hardly anything remotely close to biased or even Russian propaganda.

 

[Immortals]

(budget friendly development )From F-5 next step would be F-4 since it's been working so far.

It seems you don’t know why F-5 was picked. It was easiest plane to reverse engineer, Iran had a large fleet of them, it has a low RCS for a 1960’s airframe, it’s fairly agile, can also serve in the advanced trainer role for new pilots. That’s why it made sense to reverse engineer that plane. F-5 is the predecessor to the F-20 tigershark.

F-4 is an archaic A2G bomber jet. It’s bulky and not fit for this era of warfare.

I think we need a little more than agile interceptors vs air forces around us so let's skip here

That is exactly what Iran needs. Something to defend its airspace against air attacks and protect its air defense systems from getting overwhelmed.

There isn’t a jet Iran can make that would survive outside of its airspace very long as USAF or IAF who field F-35’s and F-15’s and F-16’s and F-18’s in large numbers.

any more budget friendly option ? or you may build ~200 F-5s with that budget ($3 billion )which is not that bad lol

Budget is not the issue. It’s mostly willpower and a suitable engine tech.

When IRGC thinks investing in Air Force is useless and the Air Force doesn’t get funding, then this is what happens.

In my opinion interceptor route is not worth it with low budget.

Any plane you build you have to set up the necessary infrastructure, so wether you plan to mass produce F-4 2.0 or F-18 2.0 you are going to have to spend money to get the industry and supply chains in place to build 48-60 jets a year. Or else you will be stuck building 1-2 a month and it will cost you much more money due to lack of scale.

India is prime costumer of Su-30 and whole sale buyer which they have unfriendly relationship with dear Pakistan and we have friendly relationship with Pakistan.On the other hand I wanted to buy coca-cola without sandwich from Russia so that is why I call it India problem ...

Pakistan needs Chinese approval to sell us any planes. And Chinese won’t offer Iran anything. You can forget that route.

We have J85 at home and maybe J79 but I don't think we have RD33 so back to step 2.

RD-33 doesn’t solve the interceptor problem.

So you have to choose here either go interceptor route and ignore domestic production then buy off the shelf

Not true at all, you can use SU-35S as a stop gap while you build your interceptors and get theme mass produced by 2035. It would give Iran 10-15 years to build a serious fighter jet.

If Russia was a true ally they would also sell us SU-75/SU-57 by 2030. That would take the stress off needing to build a 5th gen fighter and give Iran more time to mature it’s design and catch up with the rest of the world.

But for that you need serious change in Iranian vision and willpower. I don’t see that