MastanKhan
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J-31 to be inducted soon| Pilot training reportedly in progress
- Thread starter Maarkhoor
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Oscar
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I remain the skeptic in these claims because the general rule going on right now is “fake it till you make it/buy it” with Pakistan.I totally agree with you "the ultimate judge of claims", but my problem is, while the one side only claims, I and a few others explain why it is unlikely, we raise several questions and concerns and all we get in reply are wrong numbers of flying prototypes, offensive replies in the meaning of "as if we would like to belittle Pakistan" and still none of these concerns is even addressed.
It all reminds me to a similar harsh discussion a few years ago where similar guys claimed and even swore "we'll get J-20, J-16 even J-15 + the Liaoning and UK's Eurofighter "soon", they are in fact already in Pakistan secretly operating off a secret base" ... again endless stupid discussions, many concerns and explanations why it cannot be and always the same stupid "brother, I know it and you are only a foreigner!"
In the end if these claims will be true, it would mean: China develops the J-31 for Pakistan on its own cost, will deliver them to Pakistan long before it gets its own first J-35 which has an advance of two years in testing and - according to some here - most likely pays for them too on its own!
And now tell me how likely this is? ... exactly as likely as getting J-20, J-16 even J-15 + the Liaoning and UK's Eurofighter "soon"
The one who's making claims, the sky is green should explain and not the one who disagrees!
So whatever you hear, take it with a pinch of salt - it is possible that things aren’t as bad as 14 years ago during the last worldwide recession and economic slump but Im pretty sure they are struggling to make loan payments on existing purchases let alone sink billions into the J-31 along with all the millions they lose due to inefficient practices and personal peacocking
CombatCorner
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If I picked it up correct the former PAF Air Commodore has said that PAF is getting the fifth generation fighter within 18 months or so.
Last edited:
Oscar
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1. I disagree with his off the cuff remark on the IAF
2. Perhaps he too is going off circular news although it is also possible that LRIP aircraft could be delivered unlike the larger production process for J-10C.
For years F-35 partners have been delivered 1-2 of “their” jets.
Once again, 18 months go by quickly in the overall scope of things not just for the PAF but overall situation in Pakistan vis a vis everything.
This might go the way of the J-10 since they too had pilots check ride on the type and PAF officially expressing interest but then nothing came of it for 14 years.
Let's have a look at the data:
United States = 42 companies
China = 8 companies
United Kingdom = 7 companies
France = 5 companies
The US cannot be better than China in every statistical metric because China has a massive population base and domestic consumption requirements. But the US will find ways to remain competitive, this is the point.
The US is currently producing 246 aircraft per year and match Chinese production capacity in this area (source).
Chinese commercial shipbuilding capacity has no peer in the world for sure but does it translate to military shipbuilding capacity as well? Military ships have different hulls and require implementation of a variety of sensor systems and missile tubes all of which commercial shipbuilding doesn't require. While "how many factories" is a good question, it is important to focus on "how many factories can produce advanced military ships" in each country.
The US has a total of 7 military shipbuilding companies and the US is also considering tapping military shipbuilding resources of its allies to improve its military shipbuilding capacity:
US Navy Looking to S. Korean, Japanese Shipbuilders to Revive American Shipyards
Experts say US needs to collaborate with those nations to keep pace with China, world's top shipbuilder
www.voanews.com
The US has already produced a large number of tanks and armored vehicles that can be used in war and to replace potential losses in war.
China is a very large country with considerable military capability, the US will definitely take China seriously.
The US have a hotline with Russia and take it seriously:
Moscow–Washington hotline - Wikipedia
Indisputable fact? But where is the evidence besides marketing statements?
The US has officially disclosed longest range air-to-air intercept in 2021:
"An F-15C Eagle fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM at a BQM-167 subscale drone, resulting in a "kill" of the aerial target from the furthest distance ever recorded. The test took place out of Tyndall AFB, Fla., in conjunction with WSEP East."
F-15C records longest known missile shot
The 28th Test and Evaluation Squadron partnered with the 83d Fighter Weapons Squadron to execute the longest known air-to-air missile shot to date during March 2021.
www.53rdwing.af.mil
This intercept was achieved with AIM-120D and broke the previous world record of the longest air-to-air intercept with AIM-54 at 132 miles range in 1979:
"We have also received information pointing to two very long-range AIM-54 Phoenix shots dating from the 1970s. One apparently involved a target drone downed at just over 126 miles after the missile was launched from an F-14A Tomcat. The other, reportedly achieved during a training exercise in Iran, in January 1979, saw an AIM-54 hit a target drone at a range of 132 miles."
F-15 Eagle Scores “Longest Known” Air-To-Air Missile Shot During U.S. Air Force Test
The AIM-120 AMRAAM blasted a BQM-167 drone out of the sky at an unprecedented distance.
www.twz.com
A Russian Su-57 reportedly used R-37M to down a Ukrainian Su-27 at 140 miles range in Ukraine, but independent analysis is needed to verify this claim.
The US has hinted full-scale production of both AIM-260 and AIM-174 to push the envelope in the ultra-long-range air-to-air engagement regime.
The US Navy's insane new air-to-air missile: The AIM-174
The U.S. Navy just revealed what could be the longest-range air-to-air missile in American history; a weapon we now know as the AIM-174.
www.sandboxx.us
But you will not see report(s) or infographic(s) of these developments because it does not fit the ongoing practice of hyping Chinese options in press.
Many of the complaints that you see in press are subjective and stem from half-baked understanding of how these programs work, my friend.
Following thread disclose something:
- that I pointed out page earlier in this thread.
Michael
Think Tank Analyst
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1. I really don't know much about Pakistan. The relationship between the Pakistani military and the Pakistani government is not clear. What we know is that Pakistan's finances are in a very bad state and are on the verge of bankruptcy. I apologize if the Pakistani military is completely independent of government funding and has its own independently controlled sources of funding to feed the military, like the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps. Otherwise, I insist that the Pakistani military does not have the ability to purchase and maintain FC31.
2. So far, PLAAF has not had any official information about the purchase of the Air Force version FC31 (J31). The naval carrier-based version of the FC31 (J35) has been confirmed. The PAF is also not a top-tier air force, and the IAF is not a very capable opponent. If the PLA needs to verify the performance of this aircraft, the East China Sea air defense identification is a good place.
3. The significance of China's arms exports to foreign countries is completely different from that of Western countries. China's arms exports are more of a strategic consideration than a matter of making money. The prices of China's arms exports are very low, and the profits generated are far less than those of other international trade. Even many countries have borrowed money from China to buy Chinese weapons, and in the end they will lose money.
Michael
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1. In the international public opinion forum, China has always been in a weak position, which is the territory of the United States. If you try to learn about China and PLA only through the media or reports from various consulting firms, I can only express regrets. ------------- this approach is not in line with Chinese cultural traditions. This is determined by China's thousands of years of cultural traditions, and we are powerless to change it. Although we know it's important.Let's have a look at the data:
United States = 42 companies
China = 8 companies
United Kingdom = 7 companies
France = 5 companies
The US cannot be better than China in every statistical metric because China has a massive population base and domestic consumption requirements. But the US will find ways to remain competitive, this is the point.
The US is currently producing 246 aircraft per year and match Chinese production capacity in this area (source).
Chinese commercial shipbuilding capacity has no peer in the world for sure but does it translate to military shipbuilding capacity as well? Military ships have different hulls and require implementation of a variety of sensor systems and missile tubes all of which commercial shipbuilding doesn't require. While "how many factories" is a good question, it is important to focus on "how many factories can produce advanced military ships" in each country.
The US has a total of 7 military shipbuilding companies and the US is also considering tapping military shipbuilding resources of its allies to improve its military shipbuilding capacity:
US Navy Looking to S. Korean, Japanese Shipbuilders to Revive American Shipyards
Experts say US needs to collaborate with those nations to keep pace with China, world's top shipbuilder
The US has already produced a large number of tanks and armored vehicles that can be used in war and to replace potential losses in war.
China is a very large country with considerable military capability, the US will definitely take China seriously.
The US have a hotline with Russia and take it seriously:
Moscow–Washington hotline - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Indisputable fact? But where is the evidence besides marketing statements?
The US has officially disclosed longest range air-to-air intercept in 2021:
"An F-15C Eagle fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM at a BQM-167 subscale drone, resulting in a "kill" of the aerial target from the furthest distance ever recorded. The test took place out of Tyndall AFB, Fla., in conjunction with WSEP East."
F-15C records longest known missile shot
The 28th Test and Evaluation Squadron partnered with the 83d Fighter Weapons Squadron to execute the longest known air-to-air missile shot to date during March 2021.www.53rdwing.af.mil
This intercept was achieved with AIM-120D and broke the previous world record of the longest air-to-air intercept with AIM-54 at 132 miles range in 1979:
"We have also received information pointing to two very long-range AIM-54 Phoenix shots dating from the 1970s. One apparently involved a target drone downed at just over 126 miles after the missile was launched from an F-14A Tomcat. The other, reportedly achieved during a training exercise in Iran, in January 1979, saw an AIM-54 hit a target drone at a range of 132 miles."
F-15 Eagle Scores “Longest Known” Air-To-Air Missile Shot During U.S. Air Force Test
The AIM-120 AMRAAM blasted a BQM-167 drone out of the sky at an unprecedented distance.
A Russian Su-57 reportedly used R-37M to down a Ukrainian Su-27 at 140 miles range in Ukraine, but independent analysis is needed to verify this claim.
The US has hinted full-scale production of both AIM-260 and AIM-174 to push the envelope in the ultra-long-range air-to-air engagement regime.
The US Navy's insane new air-to-air missile: The AIM-174
The U.S. Navy just revealed what could be the longest-range air-to-air missile in American history; a weapon we now know as the AIM-174.
But you will not see report(s) or infographic(s) of these developments because it does not fit the ongoing practice of hyping Chinese options in press.
Many of the complaints that you see in press are subjective and stem from half-baked understanding of how these programs work, my friend.
Following thread disclose something:
- that I pointed out page earlier in this thread.
2. All of China's military-industrial complex is state-owned enterprises, and the Chinese government has absolute control. When the government deems it necessary, these companies will make immediate adjustments. This is not the same thing as United States private military enterprises.
3. Regarding the capabilities of PLA fighters and air-to-air missiles, I do not want to respond. It is recommended that you watch the interview video of the front-line officers of the US military, rather than the reports of some media and think tanks.
4. Photos of the latest improved version of the F22 have come out......... I really don't want to comment, it's miserable. If you still think it's very, very advanced, you still think it's on top of the world, then, okay, you go ahead, I won't talk about it...............
Michael
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China's current military strategy is still conservative: silently updating and manufacturing a large amount of military equipment, strengthening the training of soldiers' combat qualities, and not making it public.
When hunting a wounded beast, the best thing to do is to patiently hide in a corner and watch it breathe. Rushing up to provoke it is not a good decision.
When hunting a wounded beast, the best thing to do is to patiently hide in a corner and watch it breathe. Rushing up to provoke it is not a good decision.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Some said pak is broke---
it signed contract of 4 type 054's
Pak is broke---
it signed contract of milgem's and then with the dutch as well
pak is broke---
8 submarine contract
pak is broke---
36 J10 C contract+ JF17 blk 3's
Pak is broke---
naval mission aircraft---saab eireye
Pak is broke---
a whole plethora of top tier drones
Pak is broke---
anti aircraft missile program---long range missile program---short range missile program---anti ship missile program---
Pak military is equipped much better than many a european countries---
so please tell me---where is the money issue---???
NGAD IS THE BEST
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Before financial this issue we signed these most of these contracts
Michael
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I don't want to discuss this issue in a public forum like a PDF, nor will I provide relevant data. I have no intention of hurting the feelings of our Pakistani brothers.
In fact, the current debt of the Pakistani government far exceeds its repayment ability. Pakistan has not yet defaulted because of the support from friendly countries like China, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.
As I have mentioned before, I am not sure whether the Pakistani military operates independently of the government. If it operates independently and has its own funding channels, then the procurement of the FC31 would be unrelated to the government’s financial situation. Otherwise, it would inevitably be affected by the government’s financial crisis.
However, the current Pakistani government's fluctuating stance, especially its military cooperation agreement with the United States, has angered the Chinese government. The current level of media openness in China is quite high, and the signing of the military cooperation agreement between Pakistan and the US (including the current Pakistani government's indifference towards CPEC) has led Chinese citizens to question the Chinese government's aid to Pakistan. Based on public opinion, the Chinese government has had to readjust its strategic deployment regarding Pakistan.
Thus, we see that the Chinese government has already made many changes regarding Pakistan. The Chinese government is now focusing more on Central Asia and Southeast Asia rather than Pakistan. This is not good news for Pakistan.
We do not know the method by which the Pakistani military procures Chinese weapons. Both China and Pakistan do not disclose contract details. What we do know is that Pakistan has purchased many Chinese weapons, owes China a lot of money, and currently cannot repay these debts.....................Any business dealings with Chinese people, as long as they are cash transactions in real-time, Chinese people will deliver products at an unimaginable speed. But if it's not a cash transaction in real-time, the delivery speed will not be very fast. This principle applies at all times, whether it is with the government or the private sector, whether it is civilian goods or military trade.
The Chinese government has no intention of interfering in any country's policies, but it is unacceptable for China to provide aid on one hand while being courted by China's imagined enemy on the other. If the current Pakistani government could adjust some policy directions, many issues could be resolved easily. Otherwise, the relationship between the two sides will undergo many subtle changes.............
That's all I can say.
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Michael
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In the 1980s, the PLA engaged in continuous rotational warfare with the Vietnamese army in the south while needing to maintain high vigilance against the Soviet Union to the north. Meanwhile, China had just emerged from the "Cultural Revolution," and the country was extremely impoverished, requiring substantial construction funds. The Chinese government was unable to cover the PLA's extensive expenses. Under pressure, the CCP allowed the military to engage in business and granted certain privileges so that the PLA could cover most of its expenses itself, easing the financial burden on the state.
Due to financial pressures and policy directions, both the PLA and the world saw many changes:
1. Some mysterious companies emerged (China Poly), and many Third World countries saw a proliferation of Chinese copies of the AK47 and other light weapons.
2. China’s DF3 ballistic missiles appeared in Saudi Arabia.
3. Many companies with military backgrounds emerged in the civilian sector in China. Wealthy individuals drove military license plate cars on the streets.
4. The military saw a surge in various corruption issues, and officer promotions became a matter of monetary transactions.
.....................
I was born in the 1970s and personally experienced and felt that chaotic period of history.This is a part of history that the Chinese people reluctantly remember and wish to forget.
We do not want Pakistan to repeat this history...........
We hope the people of Pakistan can resolve their current economic issues effectively.
Due to financial pressures and policy directions, both the PLA and the world saw many changes:
1. Some mysterious companies emerged (China Poly), and many Third World countries saw a proliferation of Chinese copies of the AK47 and other light weapons.
2. China’s DF3 ballistic missiles appeared in Saudi Arabia.
3. Many companies with military backgrounds emerged in the civilian sector in China. Wealthy individuals drove military license plate cars on the streets.
4. The military saw a surge in various corruption issues, and officer promotions became a matter of monetary transactions.
.....................
I was born in the 1970s and personally experienced and felt that chaotic period of history.This is a part of history that the Chinese people reluctantly remember and wish to forget.
We do not want Pakistan to repeat this history...........
We hope the people of Pakistan can resolve their current economic issues effectively.
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Correct me if I'm wrong: didn't Pakistan use the Coalition Support Fund to purchase F-16s and other armaments?
MastanKhan
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
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Michael
Think Tank Analyst
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Hi, bro.
This is not the attitude of discussion that a "Think Tank" should have.
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