JF-17 PFX program

[Aamir Hussain]

Do you know how China works? First go and learn. There are huge chances J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public. That also could mean that we may have already become partner in it in the sense that J 31 is being designed keeping our suggestions in mind and PAF pilots could be flying them. The corporation level which we have with China is not like one we have with USA where everything is announced before we get them. All I knowing seeing past record when an PAF announces a plane is coming from China it has never taken more than 1.5 years to that announcement becoming a reality. USA and Europe are a completely different story.

We have also bought systems from Europe as well. I am pretty sure they are not on loans.

The Dev. funds freed up from Chinese purchases were used to finance the European purchases. We all know the real issue here. So let us call a spade a spade. The economy is in doldrums and any loans bought for any purpose, however "soft" or "hard," have to be paid back eventually.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The problem with KAAN as I see it, is the dependance on western engine technology and ITAR specific technologies. Pakistan has been bitten once they ae now twice shy!!

If the engine issue is resolved then KAAN should be the logical program to be part of in the longer run.

 

[guangdongt]

That is what I am trying to tell these people. No picture in Chinese media or social media comes out without permission of Chinese Government. If they want to keep prototype 4 and 5 hidden they can remain hidden until they themselves decide to reveal it. The pictures of prototype 3 are from 2018. I am pretty sure they are not sleeping since than and have developed more advance prototypes and have been flying them.

without the need for manual review, due to the use of supercomputers, there is a huge intelligent screening system behind China's social media platforms. Similarly, for images of j10c, the system will push the j10c captured by ordinary people to non target audiences, ultimately leading to dozens of people who are not interested in military viewing it. And military bloggers can obtain hundreds of thousands of views on the j10c that has been reviewed and published, most of whom are military enthusiasts.As long as the national key projects are approved, the development speed is mostly faster than what the outside world thinks
J35, I am optimistic. Exporting to foreign countries is another matter, and no one knows the detailed purchasing situation in Pakistan
The situation in Pakistan is different. If the economy allows, I don't think Pakistan will let JF17 stay in Block 3 and no longer develop

 

[sutton9999]

Read a bit too much into Western media's seditious title on supposedly someone vanished in China, nobody is vanished. Jake Ma was in Japan kept low profile when BBC etc. said vanished. You spread pictures taken from a military base, you break the law and get punished by law as in any country.

The best source is still Weibo, for example lately every few weeks someone flew by the shipyard, taking pictures of supposedly 076 LHD in progress.

As for PFX, I don't think there is a solid plan unless another large Muslim country is willing to invest in it.

 

[guangdongt]

Read a bit too much into Western media's seditious title on supposedly someone vanished in China, nobody is vanished. Jake Ma was in Japan kept low profile when BBC etc. said vanished. You spread pictures taken from a military base, you break the law and get punished by law as in any country.

最好的来源仍然是微博，例如最近每隔几周就有人飞过造船厂，拍下据称正在建造的076 LHD的照片。

至于PFX，我认为没有一个可靠的计划，除非另一个大型穆斯林国家愿意投资。

Only highly blurry exterior photos often lead people to guess and then release clearer photos. However, no one has seen the weapon carrying or more critical internal parts. So far, who has seen the internal photos of the j10c opening the nose radar cover? You can only see what can be seen or immediately cannot be hidden
There is currently no public information about which version of J31 it is in Pakistan
I also agree that making people disappear is Western propaganda and exaggeration, because the vast majority of ordinary people's leaks are blocked by the system in the early stages, so there is no follow-up. Real spies always take risks and hire people to shoot, which greatly increases the difficulty and exposes themselves

 

[Deino]

Try sharing pictures of military stuff in China without their consent and how long will it take for you to vanish we would see that. Go to China try to get close to a remote Air Base where they mostly test these things and keep them until they want public to see them. Try to take a picture and please try to release it in public. Where you would go after that nobody will know about you. The so-called pictures which get released on social media platforms in China are those which Chinese forces themselves invite guys and ask them to take pictures and then tells them when they can release them.

Bin in return it does not mean there are such things … si doe the US have Klingon-style cloaking devices in test since we don’t see them and surely if one would release such proof to the public, where would this end for him???

Thus thinking is ridiculous

… again, why to you claim there are already 5 J-31 prototypes?

 

[Deino]

That is what I am trying to tell these people. No picture in Chinese media or social media comes out without permission of Chinese Government. If they want to keep prototype 4 and 5 hidden they can remain hidden until they themselves decide to reveal it. The pictures of prototype 3 are from 2018. I am pretty sure they are not sleeping since than and have developed more advance prototypes and have been flying them.

Once again, there was no third (J-31) prototype in 2018. it was the second flying prototype of the FC-31 a totally different beast.

 

[Manticore]

If paf has realized it cant make a 5th gen on its own and has scaled back, for the moment, on a 4.5 gen fighter, then it has 3 options..

1. JF17 block 4 with chinese systems. It will keep the production line alive and bring aesa JFT number above 100 however no indeginous input and no research culture will be developed. PAF doesnt need to build block 4 following gripen ng route particularly when it already operates J10. Might be better just to buy 2 extra sqns of J10c instead of investing in a redesign of JF17.

2. JF17 block4 with pak/turk indigenization to train pak engineers and make them ready for a 5th gen project. It will keep production line alive and take the JFT aesa numbers above 100 while developing a research sector however the non stealth design wont serve paf for the next 2 decades.

3. Following the korean route who realized they couldnt make a 5th gen from the get go even with LM involvement and made a semi stealth aircraft which will have weapons bay in later blocks. This decision is a very prudent and wise one and will yield a design which might serve for the next 2 decades.

Right now the tweets give an impression of a mix of options 2 and 3. On one hand its still called JF17 which is a non stealth aircraft and on the other hand the tweets say a redesigned fighter which cant be a non stealth design in this day and age.

4. Just starting a production line of fc31 and ucavs after finishing the JF17 orders is a prudent decision as well. It will keep fleet relevant but research culture would be zero and paf will again be looking for technology for a 6th gen fighter

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

That is what I am trying to tell these people. No picture in Chinese media or social media comes out without permission of Chinese Government. If they want to keep prototype 4 and 5 hidden they can remain hidden until they themselves decide to reveal it. The pictures of prototype 3 are from 2018. I am pretty sure they are not sleeping since than and have developed more advance prototypes and have been flying them.

Again you have baseless assumptions without any proofs only you have wishful thinking

 

[AsaRad1]

This is another slide from the same presentation:
View attachment 22695
On the right is Turkish Aerospace Pakistans incorporation certificate from SECP, which has NOTHING to do with NASTP. Turkish Aerospace doesn't even have an office in NASTP. So I take their claims with a mountain of salt.


That being said, judging from the slide and discounting the usual false bravado, I think that PFX is the name given to an effort to deChinaofy the JF17. Notice the lack of the Chinese flag in a slide titled JF17 PFX. There have been conversations iniated by the PAF on this topic several times. The inclusion of the Iran flag is peculiar. I don't have an explanation for that.

I think Turkish Aerospace opened a small office inside NSTP (the NUST based one) with nothing of significance really going on.

Baykar technologies opened an office in NASTP and PAF is trying to push for serious local collaborations but their pitch isn't too convincing

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[Sparten]

On the right is Turkish Aerospace Pakistans incorporation certificate from SECP, which has NOTHING to do with NASTP.

Actually, in this case it does. Its a Pakistan office of a foreign Company and Aerospace is a restricted object under Section 26(2)(b) of the Companys Act, meaning it needs an additional license and agent.

 

[Haji Thanos]

Hi, in another thread I specifically asked "what is F 10...." no one replied because I m no one.. but 4 examples on an operational base for tests.. the thing is real and working... May be there is new name at production level...

local assembly of J10C perhaps

 

[JamD]

Actually, in this case it does. Its a Pakistan office of a foreign Company and Aerospace is a restricted object under Section 26(2)(b) of the Companys Act, meaning it needs an additional license and agent.

lol what? Thats such a stretch to connect the two. They stole that image and used it on their slides.

 

[JamD]

I think Turkish Aerospace opened a small office inside NSTP (the NUST based one) with nothing of significance really going on.

Incorrect that nothing of significance is going on. Small yes, insignificant, no.

Baykar technologies opened an office in NASTP and PAF is trying to push for serious local collaborations but their pitch isn't too convincing

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Baykar is setting up a production line to fulfill PAF's future orders. They were begging Turkish Aerospace to open office there (which is from when that slide) but as soon as Baykar stepped in they dumped TA.

 

[MirageBlue]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but this is hot air that the PAF is blowing up the nation's behind.

Some facts:
1. The JF17 facilities at Kamra (AMF) are about to go dormant and the PAF is in a great panic to figure out something to do with them.
2. The PAF approached Turkish Aerospace for potential JF17 upgrade but the Turks rightly countered what about IP and dealing with China because you cant go about messing with JF17 in secret to which the PAFs reply was "don't worry sar!" and nothing. So this discussion went nowhere.
3. Turkish Aerospace has tried several times to rope in PAC into Kaan but PAC has failed to do so because of their utter incompetence and laziness and the desire to prop up NASTP and put it between everything.
4. PAF has a habit of lying and bragging. I know of several examples where things were shown at NASTP that were literally stolen slides from Turkish Aerospace. I won't go into details. But the point is that PAF likes to pretend it's collaborating MUCH more than it really is.

Considering these facts, if I had to guess what PFX is? It's some AVM's brainfart of an idea to keep the JF17 line running with something with the plan to figure something out along the way. Nothing more. There is no collaboration with Turkey. They don't want any part of someone's current brainfart that will be replaced by a totally different brainfart in a few months. Sounds like usual false bravado and grand plans and an official version of "he's my best friend" when he doesn't even want to acknowledge your existence.

How is it that JF-17 facilities at Kamra are about to go dormant? Aren't JF-17 Blk 3 supposed to be built there?

What's the order size (current and expected) for the JF-17 Blk3?
Won't JF-17 Blk1s be upgraded to Blk 2s or 3 ?