JF-17 PFX program

So far not demonstrated on any fighter or trainer program.

For UAVs I'm not sure, perhaps @Quwa or @Oscar may be able to answer that better.
Carbon fiber has existed in use within manufacturing for nearly two decades now but it’s not some panacea for fighter manufacturing as is assumed. Great for UAVs, light and generally strong but UAVs aren’t taking fighter stresses. Those require stronger composites and more importantly manufacturing techniques for those composites. PAC has this capability now but it’s limited to smaller sections.
 
Still early stages but we do. Partly thanks to license making Falco uav airframe. Some private ventures are also busy with Carbon composites
Ive seen CF being used back in 2006 from a “scratch” manufacturing process. Otherwise everyone from IDS, NESCOM to your RC enthusiast has been using CF since the 90s in Pakistan.
 
I heard the contrary on PAC/AMF repaired SAAB 2000s. Still clocking hours without much fuss. That said, I understand repairing a complex mach 2 capable agile airframe is a different ball game something PAC struggled with. Chinese/ French MROs surely helped.
Help is fine but you’re already outlining the difference - Chinese MRO helped a little but at the end you know just enough and not more to truly test that jet to stresses.
 
@Deino

Have you seen any more recent details on the KLJ-7A?

More importantly, when it comes to Chinese AESA's, are they always fixed flat on fighters or angled? Ive seen angled nose cones on everything other than J-16's.

I was thinking, perhaps the block 3's aesa is on the gimballed swashplate instead of the fixed one, otherwise perhaps it would also be angled? Has CETC ever actually confirmed that there is a flat straight facing array option or is that just the prototype config- rick joe said there was 2 configs, the gimballed one and the 3 face array. 1733931155884.png
1733931178661.png
 
Help is fine but you’re already outlining the difference - Chinese MRO helped a little but at the end you know just enough and not more to truly test that jet to stresses.
Agreed.
PAC ain't no GD/LM.
 
So far not demonstrated on any fighter or trainer program.

For UAVs I'm not sure, perhaps @Quwa or @Oscar may be able to answer that better.

Carbon fiber has existed in use within manufacturing for nearly two decades now but it’s not some panacea for fighter manufacturing as is assumed. Great for UAVs, light and generally strong but UAVs aren’t taking fighter stresses. Those require stronger composites and more importantly manufacturing techniques for those composites. PAC has this capability now but it’s limited to smaller sections.
I've said this elsewhere as well but it is worth repeating, adding to Oscar's point.

Bala denter making CF parts in his mamu's workshop and Boeing making structural CF parts for the 787 are quite different grades of CF composites, as you'd imagine. Unfortunately, we in Pakistan are closer to the Bala denter than to Boeing (based on what I've heard from AWC and seen at PAC).

Disclaimer: I am not a composites person - just someone who know some things and has seen some things.

For aerospace grade structural composites you need:
1. The material - fibres and expoxies. We are often banned from getting the most high tech of these but that hasn't stopped us before lol. You should really be manufacturing these things locally because many CF fibers are ITAR.
2. Fibre laying machines must be used, which must be designed/imported - I haven't seen these anywhere. Hand layup isn't very precise or repeatable.
3. Very very careful design is needed for the parts themselves, with a deep understanding of fatigue. I guess this can be learned and is nonphysical so I can't say if this is present with us or not.
4. Very large and very accurate autoclaves are needed to properly cure composite parts. We have these and one is being installed at PAC that's pretty big.
5. Very large clean rooms that are connected to the autoclaves are also needed. PAC went ahead and made a clean room too small for the autoclave that they got, I don't know why lol.
6. Very carefully designed jigs must be used that maintain precise temperatures when being brought back from autoclave temperatures - this is important for proper curing.
7. Testing: I don't know much but I'm sure nondestructive and destructive testing specific to CF parts must be done.

The important thing is repeatability and quality of CF parts. The parts that we manufacture look pretty good but they have poor tolerances and poor repeatability of structural properties from one copy to another. This requires over design and heavy parts. These sorts of things are alright for UAVs but not for actual aircraft.

Composite manufacture requires a lot of investment and I don't believe Pakistan has the stomach for that kind of investment (or the need frankly).
 
I've said this elsewhere as well but it is worth repeating, adding to Oscar's point.

Bala denter making CF parts in his mamu's workshop and Boeing making structural CF parts for the 787 are quite different grades of CF composites, as you'd imagine. Unfortunately, we in Pakistan are closer to the Bala denter than to Boeing (based on what I've heard from AWC and seen at PAC).

Disclaimer: I am not a composites person - just someone who know some things and has seen some things.

For aerospace grade structural composites you need:
1. The material - fibres and expoxies. We are often banned from getting the most high tech of these but that hasn't stopped us before lol. You should really be manufacturing these things locally because many CF fibers are ITAR.
2. Fibre laying machines must be used, which must be designed/imported - I haven't seen these anywhere. Hand layup isn't very precise or repeatable.
3. Very very careful design is needed for the parts themselves, with a deep understanding of fatigue. I guess this can be learned and is nonphysical so I can't say if this is present with us or not.
4. Very large and very accurate autoclaves are needed to properly cure composite parts. We have these and one is being installed at PAC that's pretty big.
5. Very large clean rooms that are connected to the autoclaves are also needed. PAC went ahead and made a clean room too small for the autoclave that they got, I don't know why lol.
6. Very carefully designed jigs must be used that maintain precise temperatures when being brought back from autoclave temperatures - this is important for proper curing.
7. Testing: I don't know much but I'm sure nondestructive and destructive testing specific to CF parts must be done.

The important thing is repeatability and quality of CF parts. The parts that we manufacture look pretty good but they have poor tolerances and poor repeatability of structural properties from one copy to another. This requires over design and heavy parts. These sorts of things are alright for UAVs but not for actual aircraft.

Composite manufacture requires a lot of investment and I don't believe Pakistan has the stomach for that kind of investment (or the need frankly).
interesting, didnt know some fibres were ITAR restricted
 
Turkey is struggling to make it's own..!

Your incorrect there, Turkey military industry is developing fast, they have designed 5th generation plane, AI stealth jet with first flights already done. What they're struggling with is jet engine which Pakistan has no issue with.
 
Hi,

Egyptians are no measuring stick---. They have made one horrible decision after the other---.

First the toothless F16's and then the Rafales without Fangs---

It's a mystery why they would do this, they're clearly under threat and know very well someone out there doesn't want them to have cutting edge technology. Egypt should have bought Jf17 block 3s, bought latest air to air long range missiles, Russians, Chinese or in the future Turkey could have provided them with missiles, avionics, upgrades, Pakistan/China wouldn't have placed too many restrictions.
 
Hi,

It is the muslim mindset---that sets up all the muslim nations for failure---.

Muslims believe that their faith will make them succeed---.

Whereas 'enemy' believes that ahead of TIME preparedness along with faith & correct weapons will make them succeed---.

Then not trying to understand what the enemy can do---not accepting how strong the enemy is---is the final nail in the coffin---.

Muslims think that calling the enemy a "Kaffir" is enough & that will bring Allah's help---& even after so many failures---no one has told them to change their thinking---and no one has been able to bring a change.

While living the life of perversity---all muslims are waiting for angels to come help them win wars.

I agree that is the wrong mentality. Islam says always have your horse ready but keep your faith in Allah almighty aswell since victory or defeat comes from Allah almighty. This is why historically Muslims had very powerful armies, education systems, government system and even the west copied them, they have 100s of books on what the muslims golden era contributed to development of western society. The only people who don't know this is the muslims themselves lol.
 
Quick question:

Why didn't Pakistan join TFX project back in the day?

Some say Pakistan has 100s of engineers in Turkey, being part of many projects including tfx, regarding tfx what can Pakistan contribute? For Pakistan it's beneficial because Turkey has the best universities, education to gain experience in military technology and for Turkey its good to have engineers from around the world, especially from nations who will become customers in the future. Pakistan is waiting till the engine issue is resolved so will most likely buy it.
 

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