JF-17 PFX program

[Deino]

Don't get too fanatical about things in the discussion phase. I know very well that you are afraid that Pakistan will remain a prisoner of Chinese weapons and the Chinese arms market. We cannot force countries not to try to develop their industry or look for better and less costly ways to protect their national security. In other words, your responses are simply related to Chinese interests and not objective criticism. You are forgetting many things. China has been around for a very short period of time. Many of its products are originally Russian products, starting with the design or basic components. That is, the matter is related to Chinese theft of technology from the Russians and Americans, then subsequent Chinese developments on them. Secondly, do not forget that the Chinese product has remained from the fifties to the last ten years very poor and extremely bad. Egypt has lost many pilots due to the poor performance of the Chinese F-6 aircraft engines, and Egypt has replaced the poor Chinese engines with other engines. The K-8E aircraft is an imitation of the British HAWK aircraft, and despite the Chinese making 33 developments to the aircraft with an American engine, Egypt has continued to redevelop it and replace the Chinese components with Western components. So that the aircraft can remain in service until Now, here is the reason for Egypt's refusal in 2010 to produce the Chinese L-15 aircraft so far: the poor experience of Chinese aircraft.
Despite the age of the MIG-21 aircraft, Egypt developed it and preferred it over the Chinese F-7, whether in terms of engine or structure.
Pakistan itself preferred the RD-93 engine over the Chinese version WS-13, which is a copy of the Russian RD-93 engine. The Chinese superiority is beyond doubt, and countries still prefer the Russian over the Chinese. The modesty of the Russian developments in AESA radars is what opens the way for exporting fighters, and the matter is not related to the Chinese engines, but there are criticisms of the Chinese WS-10 engine.
Up until this moment, China is still benefiting from Russian developments for its old weapons and engines, because the Russians' ability to develop, innovate and create is still unique from the Chinese mentality that relies on the idea of imitation. Russian solutions are cheaper and more effective, even if they are not stronger with lower performance, better than solutions at a higher cost with economically unfeasible performance, unlike the reliability of the Russian product over the Chinese.

What is the latest Chinese aircraft? J-20 is built on the Russian MIG-142 technical frame
The Z-10 aircraft was originally designed by Kamov
The J-10 aircraft is from the Israeli Lavi project

You have to see things more objectively, your trust in Chinese products is not recognized by countries much, but it is still a matter of doubt for them. The Chinese difficulties in exporting fourth-generation fighters are known to everyone, and fifth-generation fighters are studied by countries for a long time due to the poor experiences of Chinese fighters. We are happy that China has produced fifth-generation fighters because it is an area of pressure on other suppliers to obtain better offers from all parties, not because the Chinese are the best. Simply put, China sells the Chinese product at a cheap price due to its modest level. If it were better, its price would be high, and the matter is not only for large-scale and dense production, but also for the low cost of manufacturing.
Therefore, your lack of conviction in the Russians and their development of their engines is your opinion, and I cannot object to it. As for your opinion, you are not convinced, most countries are still not convinced by either Chinese engines or Chinese fighters, but rather consider them like any cheap Chinese product that does not enjoy Completely reliable or completely or primarily relied upon
So your claims of China's complete superiority over the Russians or the Russians' inability make us smile at someone who is deceived by the good shape and colors of the good products, but rather by the actual performance, as fighters are not Chinese children's toys that we ignore breaking after a short period.

One of the reasons countries turn to Chinese products is the transfer of technology, so the new Chinese trend to reject the transfer of technology and technical cooperation will turn them like any other supplier, but will make many people move away from the lower quality Chinese products that they used to give local production licenses. Do you understand this point? Because I notice a Chinese tone and arrogance, China has not become a major industrial country except because countries have moved away from American and European products in the economic field, because they and the Russians have refused to transfer technology, and China's trend to imitate the West in the same policy will simply lead to a rapid move away from the Chinese product, as China is moving to become like the West in the points of restricting the transfer of technology or cooperation. Why do countries cooperate with it in the first place? I would like to give you an idea. African countries have begun to move away from China in infrastructure projects and are choosing countries Another is due to poor implementation and high corruption in it and the West declared an economic war on China

China needs a partner and not a superior Chinese view

Pakistan is a market for China despite its economic awareness, but it gave the Chinese product a reputation and an export outlet to convince other countries of its products and China's cooperation with Pakistan is beneficial to both parties and not just to Pakistan, meaning that you as a Chinese country must offer Pakistan better offers than the Russians

Sorry, but this post alone disqualifies you totally ... telling me "Don't get too fanatical about things in the discussion phase." shows only you do not know me and mis-interpret anything I said so far!

If Pakistan buys Chinese or not is totally irrelevant, in fact I do not care and I'm well aware of the limitations and even more so political strings attached, the fact however only is Pakistan has not many other options" and you in contrast portray it as if there are several.

Even more you say Pakistan chose the RD-93 over the WS-13 ... that's wrong! At the time, the JF-17 was under development, there was not even a WS-13!

You try to explain the inferiority of current Chinese fighters with the fact that Egypt preferred the MIG-21 over the Chinese F-7 ... what a lame argument since you cannot compare a current J-10C, J-16 or even J-20 with any of these old types, where the bad experience are more than correct.

And finally you still think this BS?!!! "J-20 is built on the Russian MIG-142 technical frame" ... sorry, but there is nothing more to discuss

 

[Oscar]

.

And finally you still think this BS?!!! "J-20 is built on the Russian MIG-142 technical frame" ... sorry, but there is nothing more to discuss

Methinks there is some confusion in the origin story being linked to the Command and Conquer Generals game which came out in 2003 and featured a Chinese fighter “Mig”

Which looks like the Mig 1.42 and because the planform looks “similar” the connection is being made.

The origin story I received from a former CPD JF-17 (who first gave me the story on 3 designs) was technical consultation from third party freelancers but also a LOT of western publications coupled with Chinese hard work and knowledge… so while one of the JAST designs resembles the J-20 planform - it ends there.

Which brings me to the same answer I give on all of these - if it resembles something - so what? Its math - if a particular set of mathematical variables lead to an effective design whose EFFECTIVENESS is measured in its ability to defeat the enemy - then even if China copied the F-22 rivet for rivet - it doesn’t mean that the lethality of the F-22s design didn’t come with it.

Regardless - not linked to the thread and frankly derails it into some discussion that is linked part in fantasy and part in “nobody can guarantee 100%”

 

[MastanKhan]

Don't get too fanatical about things in the discussion phase. I know very well that you are afraid that Pakistan will remain a prisoner of Chinese weapons and the Chinese arms market. We cannot force countries not to try to develop their industry or look for better and less costly ways to protect their national security. In other words, your responses are simply related to Chinese interests and not objective criticism. You are forgetting many things. China has been around for a very short period of time. Many of its products are originally Russian products, starting with the design or basic components. That is, the matter is related to Chinese theft of technology from the Russians and Americans, then subsequent Chinese developments on them. Secondly, do not forget that the Chinese product has remained from the fifties to the last ten years very poor and extremely bad. Egypt has lost many pilots due to the poor performance of the Chinese F-6 aircraft engines, and Egypt has replaced the poor Chinese engines with other engines. The K-8E aircraft is an imitation of the British HAWK aircraft, and despite the Chinese making 33 developments to the aircraft with an American engine, Egypt has continued to redevelop it and replace the Chinese components with Western components. So that the aircraft can remain in service until Now, here is the reason for Egypt's refusal in 2010 to produce the Chinese L-15 aircraft so far: the poor experience of Chinese aircraft.
Despite the age of the MIG-21 aircraft, Egypt developed it and preferred it over the Chinese F-7, whether in terms of engine or structure.
Pakistan itself preferred the RD-93 engine over the Chinese version WS-13, which is a copy of the Russian RD-93 engine. The Chinese superiority is beyond doubt, and countries still prefer the Russian over the Chinese. The modesty of the Russian developments in AESA radars is what opens the way for exporting fighters, and the matter is not related to the Chinese engines, but there are criticisms of the Chinese WS-10 engine.
Up until this moment, China is still benefiting from Russian developments for its old weapons and engines, because the Russians' ability to develop, innovate and create is still unique from the Chinese mentality that relies on the idea of imitation. Russian solutions are cheaper and more effective, even if they are not stronger with lower performance, better than solutions at a higher cost with economically unfeasible performance, unlike the reliability of the Russian product over the Chinese.

What is the latest Chinese aircraft? J-20 is built on the Russian MIG-142 technical frame
The Z-10 aircraft was originally designed by Kamov
The J-10 aircraft is from the Israeli Lavi project

You have to see things more objectively, your trust in Chinese products is not recognized by countries much, but it is still a matter of doubt for them. The Chinese difficulties in exporting fourth-generation fighters are known to everyone, and fifth-generation fighters are studied by countries for a long time due to the poor experiences of Chinese fighters. We are happy that China has produced fifth-generation fighters because it is an area of pressure on other suppliers to obtain better offers from all parties, not because the Chinese are the best. Simply put, China sells the Chinese product at a cheap price due to its modest level. If it were better, its price would be high, and the matter is not only for large-scale and dense production, but also for the low cost of manufacturing.
Therefore, your lack of conviction in the Russians and their development of their engines is your opinion, and I cannot object to it. As for your opinion, you are not convinced, most countries are still not convinced by either Chinese engines or Chinese fighters, but rather consider them like any cheap Chinese product that does not enjoy Completely reliable or completely or primarily relied upon
So your claims of China's complete superiority over the Russians or the Russians' inability make us smile at someone who is deceived by the good shape and colors of the good products, but rather by the actual performance, as fighters are not Chinese children's toys that we ignore breaking after a short period.

One of the reasons countries turn to Chinese products is the transfer of technology, so the new Chinese trend to reject the transfer of technology and technical cooperation will turn them like any other supplier, but will make many people move away from the lower quality Chinese products that they used to give local production licenses. Do you understand this point? Because I notice a Chinese tone and arrogance, China has not become a major industrial country except because countries have moved away from American and European products in the economic field, because they and the Russians have refused to transfer technology, and China's trend to imitate the West in the same policy will simply lead to a rapid move away from the Chinese product, as China is moving to become like the West in the points of restricting the transfer of technology or cooperation. Why do countries cooperate with it in the first place? I would like to give you an idea. African countries have begun to move away from China in infrastructure projects and are choosing countries Another is due to poor implementation and high corruption in it and the West declared an economic war on China

China needs a partner and not a superior Chinese view

Pakistan is a market for China despite its economic awareness, but it gave the Chinese product a reputation and an export outlet to convince other countries of its products and China's cooperation with Pakistan is beneficial to both parties and not just to Pakistan, meaning that you as a Chinese country must offer Pakistan better offers than the Russians

Hi,

Egyptians are no measuring stick---. They have made one horrible decision after the other---.

First the toothless F16's and then the Rafales without Fangs---

 

[Michael]

Don't get too fanatical about things in the discussion phase. I know very well that you are afraid that Pakistan will remain a prisoner of Chinese weapons and the Chinese arms market. We cannot force countries not to try to develop their industry or look for better and less costly ways to protect their national security. In other words, your responses are simply related to Chinese interests and not objective criticism. You are forgetting many things. China has been around for a very short period of time. Many of its products are originally Russian products, starting with the design or basic components. That is, the matter is related to Chinese theft of technology from the Russians and Americans, then subsequent Chinese developments on them. Secondly, do not forget that the Chinese product has remained from the fifties to the last ten years very poor and extremely bad. Egypt has lost many pilots due to the poor performance of the Chinese F-6 aircraft engines, and Egypt has replaced the poor Chinese engines with other engines. The K-8E aircraft is an imitation of the British HAWK aircraft, and despite the Chinese making 33 developments to the aircraft with an American engine, Egypt has continued to redevelop it and replace the Chinese components with Western components. So that the aircraft can remain in service until Now, here is the reason for Egypt's refusal in 2010 to produce the Chinese L-15 aircraft so far: the poor experience of Chinese aircraft.
Despite the age of the MIG-21 aircraft, Egypt developed it and preferred it over the Chinese F-7, whether in terms of engine or structure.
Pakistan itself preferred the RD-93 engine over the Chinese version WS-13, which is a copy of the Russian RD-93 engine. The Chinese superiority is beyond doubt, and countries still prefer the Russian over the Chinese. The modesty of the Russian developments in AESA radars is what opens the way for exporting fighters, and the matter is not related to the Chinese engines, but there are criticisms of the Chinese WS-10 engine.
Up until this moment, China is still benefiting from Russian developments for its old weapons and engines, because the Russians' ability to develop, innovate and create is still unique from the Chinese mentality that relies on the idea of imitation. Russian solutions are cheaper and more effective, even if they are not stronger with lower performance, better than solutions at a higher cost with economically unfeasible performance, unlike the reliability of the Russian product over the Chinese.

What is the latest Chinese aircraft? J-20 is built on the Russian MIG-142 technical frame
The Z-10 aircraft was originally designed by Kamov
The J-10 aircraft is from the Israeli Lavi project

You have to see things more objectively, your trust in Chinese products is not recognized by countries much, but it is still a matter of doubt for them. The Chinese difficulties in exporting fourth-generation fighters are known to everyone, and fifth-generation fighters are studied by countries for a long time due to the poor experiences of Chinese fighters. We are happy that China has produced fifth-generation fighters because it is an area of pressure on other suppliers to obtain better offers from all parties, not because the Chinese are the best. Simply put, China sells the Chinese product at a cheap price due to its modest level. If it were better, its price would be high, and the matter is not only for large-scale and dense production, but also for the low cost of manufacturing.
Therefore, your lack of conviction in the Russians and their development of their engines is your opinion, and I cannot object to it. As for your opinion, you are not convinced, most countries are still not convinced by either Chinese engines or Chinese fighters, but rather consider them like any cheap Chinese product that does not enjoy Completely reliable or completely or primarily relied upon
So your claims of China's complete superiority over the Russians or the Russians' inability make us smile at someone who is deceived by the good shape and colors of the good products, but rather by the actual performance, as fighters are not Chinese children's toys that we ignore breaking after a short period.

One of the reasons countries turn to Chinese products is the transfer of technology, so the new Chinese trend to reject the transfer of technology and technical cooperation will turn them like any other supplier, but will make many people move away from the lower quality Chinese products that they used to give local production licenses. Do you understand this point? Because I notice a Chinese tone and arrogance, China has not become a major industrial country except because countries have moved away from American and European products in the economic field, because they and the Russians have refused to transfer technology, and China's trend to imitate the West in the same policy will simply lead to a rapid move away from the Chinese product, as China is moving to become like the West in the points of restricting the transfer of technology or cooperation. Why do countries cooperate with it in the first place? I would like to give you an idea. African countries have begun to move away from China in infrastructure projects and are choosing countries Another is due to poor implementation and high corruption in it and the West declared an economic war on China

China needs a partner and not a superior Chinese view

Pakistan is a market for China despite its economic awareness, but it gave the Chinese product a reputation and an export outlet to convince other countries of its products and China's cooperation with Pakistan is beneficial to both parties and not just to Pakistan, meaning that you as a Chinese country must offer Pakistan better offers than the Russians

Your comments are filled with tons of bias. Whether you are ignorant or deliberate, I'm not going to respond to them for a while.

According to the rules of the PDF, every member must indicate his “Country of Origin” and “Country of Residence”, otherwise he will be restricted and penalized.
@Musings can you clarify his situation and verify his identity?

Post in thread 'Announcement: Please update your country flags'

Nov 19, 2024

@Registered

I have noticed that some users have still not set their flags despite numerous reminders. This is your final warning. If you do not set your flags, your account will be permanently banned without further notice.

Please follow the link below and select both your country of origin and your country of residence flags.

https://defencepk.com/forums/account/account-details

• Musings

• 
• 

 

[Musings]

@Sami_1 display the flags on your profile or I will have to ban you

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

Egyptians are no measuring stick---. They have made one horrible decision after the other---.

First the toothless F16's and then the Rafales without Fangs---

Why do you think all these states (many are artificially created) around Israil being run by Firauns and Nemruds (to their own folks only) at the helms? They're there to terminate and curtail their own fighting capabilities....

 

[MastanKhan]

Why do you think all these states (many are artificially created) around Israil being run by Firauns and Nemruds (to their own folks only) at the helms? They're there to terminate and curtail their own fighting capabilities....

Hi,

It is the muslim mindset---that sets up all the muslim nations for failure---.

Muslims believe that their faith will make them succeed---.

Whereas 'enemy' believes that ahead of TIME preparedness along with faith & correct weapons will make them succeed---.

Then not trying to understand what the enemy can do---not accepting how strong the enemy is---is the final nail in the coffin---.

Muslims think that calling the enemy a "Kaffir" is enough & that will bring Allah's help---& even after so many failures---no one has told them to change their thinking---and no one has been able to bring a change.

While living the life of perversity---all muslims are waiting for angels to come help them win wars.

 

[MirageBlue]

Your habbit of underestimating us is hilarious but please continue. No we are just using name of JF-17. PFX by all mean would be a totally different beast. Can't be compared to current JF-17. As for technology I see more help coming from Turkey in this one than from China.

You overestimate your capabilities greatly. It takes a lot of time, money for R&D to develop actual fighter programs.

None of the infrastructure required for the development of a JF-17 class fighter exist in Pakistan, so unless you guys have some miraculous new techniques to design and develop such complex machines, this is not going to be a "totally different beast".

I had predicted years ago when this forum was going all gung-ho over Project Azm that it was going to end up as a no-show program and that the PAF would go for the most valid and natural choice- the FC-35. Now it's the J-35 and we know that the PAF is most interested in acquiring it. Exactly as I had predicted years ago.

Even back then I had asked forum members as to whether Pakistan had the basic infrastructure in place to develop a new fighter, that too a 5th gen fighter?! And not a single response came about whether such facilities exist in Pakistan or not.

-Any experience with development of an Iron Bird rig? No
-Experience in development of the complex avionics of a fighter? No
-Transonic and Supersonic Wind tunnels to generate the aero data required? No
-Lightning test facility to test the resistance of the fighter to lightning strikes? No
-Open Range for measuring RCS of a fighter? No
-Facility to measure the sufficiency of a landing gear to withstand landing loads? No
-Facility to measure the fatigue life of a fighter or trainer? No
-Ever designed even a clean sheet trainer design? No
-Ever designed and tested the super complex FBW of a fighter? No
-Ever designed the operating software on board a fighter? No
-Ever designed anything like the Mission Computer and other such computers on board a fighter? No

If the answer for all these is that the Chinese will help then well, the JF-17 PFX will remain a Chinese venture with Pakistani specified requirements. They do all the design, analysis and testing, you do some of the flight testing bit and then operate.
Besides, Janes already mentioned that PAF officers claimed that the JF-17 PFX development will be done by 2030. With no facilities in place to develop a larger, more capable JF-17, this can only mean that there is replacement of some key avionics and the radar sensor and addition of a longer range BVRAAM like the PL-15E.

Pakistan unveils JF-17PX fighter

PAF officers at IDEAS 2024 described the JF-17 PFX as a 4.5-plus generation fighter aircraft. They also said that development of the type is expected to be completed before the end of the decade.

Senior Pakistani government officials told Janes that the JF-17 PFX will be equipped with air-to-air missiles (AAMs) that have a longer range than those fitted onto earlier versions of the JF-17, and that Pakistan intends to locally produce the PFX's radar system.

Long-range AAMs expected to be acquired by Pakistan for integration into the JF-17 PFX include China's PL-15.

In 2022 Pakistan began receiving PL-15 AAMs for fitting onto the JF-17C Block III, the latest production model of the fighter aircraft, which was rolled out by PAC at its production facility in Kamra, north of Islamabad, in 2023.

The PAF has said the Block III aircraft provides it with several improved capabilities over the earlier Block II version. These include superior manoeuvrability, extended range, and enhanced combat capabilities, according to the PAF.

Other Block III enhancements include a reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section, a result of greater use of composites, and improved avionics.

 

[zhanlong]

A small question, does Pakistan have carbon fiber technology? An important material for manufacturing the fuselage of fighter jets,

 

[TAC]

You overestimate your capabilities greatly. It takes a lot of time, money for R&D to develop actual fighter programs.

None of the infrastructure required for the development of a JF-17 class fighter exist in Pakistan, so unless you guys have some miraculous new techniques to design and develop such complex machines, this is not going to be a "totally different beast".

I had predicted years ago when this forum was going all gung-ho over Project Azm that it was going to end up as a no-show program and that the PAF would go for the most valid and natural choice- the FC-35. Now it's the J-35 and we know that the PAF is most interested in acquiring it. Exactly as I had predicted years ago.

Even back then I had asked forum members as to whether Pakistan had the basic infrastructure in place to develop a new fighter, that too a 5th gen fighter?! And not a single response came about whether such facilities exist in Pakistan or not.

-Any experience with development of an Iron Bird rig? No
-Experience in development of the complex avionics of a fighter? No
-Transonic and Supersonic Wind tunnels to generate the aero data required? No
-Lightning test facility to test the resistance of the fighter to lightning strikes? No
-Open Range for measuring RCS of a fighter? No
-Facility to measure the sufficiency of a landing gear to withstand landing loads? No
-Facility to measure the fatigue life of a fighter or trainer? No
-Ever designed even a clean sheet trainer design? No
-Ever designed and tested the super complex FBW of a fighter? No
-Ever designed the operating software on board a fighter? No
-Ever designed anything like the Mission Computer and other such computers on board a fighter? No

If the answer for all these is that the Chinese will help then well, the JF-17 PFX will remain a Chinese venture with Pakistani specified requirements. They do all the design, analysis and testing, you do some of the flight testing bit and then operate.
Besides, Janes already mentioned that PAF officers claimed that the JF-17 PFX development will be done by 2030. With no facilities in place to develop a larger, more capable JF-17, this can only mean that there is replacement of some key avionics and the radar sensor and addition of a longer range BVRAAM like the PL-15E.

Pakistan unveils JF-17PX fighter

I believe PAF has already specified the specific parts of the PFX that they want to have full in-house ‘control of’ such as radar. I would suggest looking at those specifics and then assessing if Pakistan has the capability to absorb those techs by 2030 - as opposed to listing everything associated with modern fighter development, making the challenge exponentially bigger than anything they have stated and then dismantling the same. As I’ve said all along, for this to be a success Pakistan will need and is likely to get substantial foreign assistance. I’ve no issues with that, if the product achieves the timelines and requirements.

 

[MirageBlue]

A small question, does Pakistan have carbon fiber technology? An important material for manufacturing the fuselage of fighter jets,

So far not demonstrated on any fighter or trainer program.

For UAVs I'm not sure, perhaps @Quwa or @Oscar may be able to answer that better.

 

[MirageBlue]

I believe PAF has already specified the specific parts of the PFX that they want to have full in-house ‘control of’ such as radar. I would suggest looking at those specifics and then assessing if Pakistan has the capability to absorb those techs by 2030 - as opposed to listing everything associated with modern fighter development, making the challenge exponentially bigger than anything they have stated and then dismantling the same. As I’ve said all along, for this to be a success Pakistan will need and is likely to get substantial foreign assistance. I’ve no issues with that, if the product achieves the timelines and requirements.

I was responding to the poster who claimed that the JF-17 PFX will be an "entirely new beast", implying that there are wholesale changes to be seen, including airframe, engine, etc.

 

[zhanlong]

So far not demonstrated on any fighter or trainer program.

For UAVs I'm not sure, perhaps @Quwa or @Oscar may be able to answer that better.

At least the fuselage. Perhaps still using Chinese technology.

 

[Be dazzled]

All I heard was “kuch thoray bohat upar neechay tha”

I heard the contrary on PAC/AMF repaired SAAB 2000s. Still clocking hours without much fuss. That said, I understand repairing a complex mach 2 capable agile airframe is a different ball game something PAC struggled with. Chinese/ French MROs surely helped.

 

[Be dazzled]

A small question, does Pakistan have carbon fiber technology? An important material for manufacturing the fuselage of fighter jets,

Still early stages but we do. Partly thanks to license making Falco uav airframe. Some private ventures are also busy with Carbon composites