JF-17 PFX program

[Taimoor]

J-31 will be here way sooner than you think. And right now, question is what the hell is this JF-17 PFX program.

Around end of next year.

 

[Deino]

Mr @Deino has terrible history of making wrong guesses. You just proved you have no clue about these matters. He was also in complete denial about Pakistan getting J-10 C. And than we had J-10 C. So please continue to live in your denial bubble.

That’s an open insult and blatant lie!
I never claimed Pakistan would never get J-10C, in fact E always said it is the only viable option and realistic solution for the PAF‘s imminent needs.

What I however strongly denied and still do are such stupid statements Pakistan would get J-15, J-16, would soon get J-20 and even retired typhoons, so would already secretly be in service. We all remember these stories based on „thrust me brother“ two years ago.

As such clear and loud: you are a liar and your claim of J-31 prototype 03 in 2018 and now nos. 04 & 05 are an even bigger lie too.

 

[Deino]

Around end of next year.

I would bet my ass even around the end of next year the PLAN still won’t have its own J-35.

Is there now a competition on who claims the earliest date until we‘ll see the J-31???

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Rebuild, Upgrades, Overhauls, and I believe further block III's to compete with an increasing AESA equipped IAF will keep AMF busy for quite a while.

 

[Corax]

That’s an open insult and Platane lie!
I never claimed Pakistan would never get J-10C, in fact E always said it is the only viable option and realistic solution for the PAF‘s imminent needs.

What I however strongly denied and still do are such stupid statements Pakistan would get J-15, J-16, would soon get J-20 and even retired typhoons, so would already secretly be in service. We all remember these stories based on „thrust me brother“ two years ago.

As such clear and loud: you are a liar and your claim of J-31 prototype 03 in 2018 and now nos. 04 & 05 are an even bigger lie too.

I have to say you have been quite strong in your scepticism regarding quite a few things over the years. I remember how you were very adamant on the Airforces Monthly forum how the PLAF wasn't ordering the Su-35, remember that? And then you constantly writing off the Turks developing their own fifth gen fighter You constantly said the Turks couldn't do it...and here we are But I don't blame you, even though I found a lot of those things unrealistic, if the past couple of decades have taught us anything it's that the world can change very very quickly, in the most unexpected of way, and you only have to look at how far the likes of China and other countries have come in that time that you can't right anything off.

 

[Taimoor]

I would bet my ass even around the end of next year the PLAN still won’t have its own J-35.

Is there now a competition on who claims the earliest date until we‘ll see the J-31???

That was precisely my reaction when I first heard (not on this forum).

Feel free to bet your arse, your dignity or whatever!

These birds are coming sooner then most realise.

 

[Zarvan]

Around end of next year.

Could be.

 

[Zarvan]

That was precisely my reaction when I first heard (not on this forum).

Feel free to bet your arse, your dignity or whatever!

These birds are coming sooner then most realise.

No matter how many times we surprise him. He would never learn. So let him live in bubble. INSHALLAH J-31 are coming soon.

 

[Zarvan]

Rebuild, Upgrades, Overhauls, and I believe further block III's to compete with an increasing AESA equipped IAF will keep AMF busy for quite a while.

They will continue in parallel but JF-17 PFX would be pretty much a new beast. Either like a Grippen E type thing, or some sort of semi stealth thing.

Grippen E

 

[PakAl]

I would bet my ass even around the end of next year the PLAN still won’t have its own J-35.

Is there now a competition on who claims the earliest date until we‘ll see the J-31???

@Deino Looking at current situation the J35s are coming for PLA and Paf but people should not be offended if we say they are not coming until 2030/2032, the plane is not even ready and there is no news about an air to air version as only the naval one has few prototypes built, if the plane is ready by 2027, it will still take a few more years for it to be inducted, the 2030/2032 timeline looks more realistic or even later than that because paf normally waits until a platform is mature.

 

[Awwad]

PAF just getting a 4.5 gen platform and then getting two 5th gen platforms in the space of just 5 odd years is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard.

@Zarvan
I answered the illogical question that "if we can buy Vt-4s, artillery, drones & blabla so we can buy different types of 5th gen too...." >> I said, all the previous stuff is done on installments and we'll have to wait until those are matured both the platforms & the loans. We can't go on a shopping spree on a credit card like a mad man. Credit limit has reached already. Secondly, 5th gen platforms are nothing like tanks and other stuff. They are most difficult to maintain, most expensive to buy, operate and maintain. Even hourly cost of operation is mind blowing. You have to create a specific supply chain / similarity of vendor for practical purposes. Then you dedicate & commit to a specific platform invest in time investment & economic investment to create war doctrines, strategies over it. You need money even for the war exercises. You'll destroy your airforce by inducting different types within few year gaps.

Now I have some serious questions for you @Zarvan


1) Forget about 5th gen platforms. Can you give example from the past of a 4th gen platform. That PAF would have acquired a 4th gen platform and quickly inducted another one ? In the entire history PAF only inducted F-16s (in early 1980s & JF-17 in late 2000s). Now recently the J-10Cs (4.5 gen) . If PAF was smart enough to not make a silly mistake of adding massive burden & overhead of multiple advance platforms of different types than why do you think it will make such a stupid move now ? (and don't ever compare tanks, artillery or other stuff with 5th gen aircrafts)

2) How do you think PAF will create logistics around a platform if it buys totally different type of platforms all nearly in same timeline.

3) How many aircrafts of a single type should in PAF inventory before it should go for the next type?

4) Mix achaar of aircrafts is better OR less but mature types is better for PAF ?

Somewhere in 2030s if we create a mix achaar, like:
J-10Cs ( 50), J-31 (20), KAAN (10). Would that be better OR following will be better?
J-10Cs ( 80+) & J-31 (30+)

5) What do think how many J-10Cs, how many J-31s and how many KAANs PAF will have by 2035 according to your thinking?


@Zarvan just answer 5 above questions, I will understand your point of view. Just answer point by point. We are not giving arguments for the sake of arguements. If you're arguements are valid than I should change my views and if mine have weight than you should change yours. If we don't then we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Taimoor]

No matter how many times we surprise him. He would never learn. So let him live in bubble. INSHALLAH J-31 are coming soon.

What people are failing to understand, PAF is no longer "guardian of skies" only, they have been transformed into hegemonic force which will dictate its will over adversaries in future wars/conflict. This change of role was clearly demonstrated against both India and Iran. This addition will be inline with this.

Plus, the global conflicts which are increasingly now been driven by faith/dogmas, not just geopolitics, are expediting this enhancement of capabilities. We are well and truly looking way beyond our region.

J31 is not a luxury, it's a necessity.

 

[Zarvan]

What people are failing to understand, PAF is no longer "guardian of skies" only, they have been transformed into hegemonic force which will dictate its will over adversaries in future wars/conflict. This change of role was clearly demonstrated against both India and Iran. This addition will be inline with this.

Plus, the global conflicts which are increasingly now been driven by faith/dogmas, not just geopolitics, are expediting this enhancement of capabilities. We are well and truly looking way beyond our region.

J31 is not a luxury, it's a necessity.

Exactly!!! The year 2019 changed everything. Army itself realized what they can achieve through Pakistan Air Force. That is there is so much focus on Air Force right now plus projects like NASTP. People don't realize the scale of NASTP. It has changed everything INSHALLAH. PAF will dominate. First it used to be we used to answer India's every induction. Now India will have to answer our inductions and match to us. J-31, KAAN two 2 engine jets plus JF-17 PFX a light weight stealth or almost stealth jet. More like SU-75.

 

[Zarvan]

PAF just getting a 4.5 gen platform and then getting two 5th gen platforms in the space of just 5 odd years is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard.

@Zarvan
I answered the illogical question that "if we can buy Vt-4s, artillery, drones & blabla so we can buy different types of 5th gen too...." >> I said, all the previous stuff is done on installments and we'll have to wait until those are matured both the platforms & the loans. We can't go on a shopping spree on a credit card like a mad man. Credit limit has reached already. Secondly, 5th gen platforms are nothing like tanks and other stuff. They are most difficult to maintain, most expensive to buy, operate and maintain. Even hourly cost of operation is mind blowing. You have to create a specific supply chain / similarity of vendor for practical purposes. Then you dedicate & commit to a specific platform invest in time investment & economic investment to create war doctrines, strategies over it. You need money even for the war exercises. You'll destroy your airforce by inducting different types within few year gaps.

Now I have some serious questions for you @Zarvan


1) Forget about 5th gen platforms. Can you give example from the past of a 4th gen platform. That PAF would have acquired a 4th gen platform and quickly inducted another one ? In the entire history PAF only inducted F-16s (in early 1980s & JF-17 in late 2000s). Now recently the J-10Cs (4.5 gen) . If PAF was smart enough to not make a silly mistake of adding massive burden & overhead of multiple advance platforms of different types than why do you think it will make such a stupid move now ? (and don't ever compare tanks, artillery or other stuff with 5th gen aircrafts)

2) How do you think PAF will create logistics around a platform if it buys totally different type of platforms all nearly in same timeline.

3) How many aircrafts of a single type should in PAF inventory before it should go for the next type?

4) Mix achaar of aircrafts is better OR different types is better for PAF ? by mix achaar, I mean: J-10Cs ( 50), J-31 (20), KAAN (10) OR J-10Cs ( 80+) & J-31 (30+) ?

5) What do think how many J-10Cs, how many J-31s and how many KAANs PAF will have by 2035 according to your thinking?


@Zarvan just answer 5 above questions, I will understand your point of view. Just answer point by point. We are not giving arguments for the sake of arguements. If you're arguements are valid than I should change my views and if mine have weight than you should change yours. If we don't then we'll just agree to disagree.

By 2035 we would be able to raise at least one squadron of KAAN. Because KAAN would start getting inducted by 2030 to 2032. And each year at best we may get 10 KAAN. J-31 will be here within two years. As for J-10 C the total number of them won't be less than 126 if not way more. JF-17 PFX question is how long will it take to develop. All these jets would be way above 100 in number. I am talking about final number.

 

[Zarvan]

What

PAF just getting a 4.5 gen platform and then getting two 5th gen platforms in the space of just 5 odd years is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard.

@Zarvan
I answered the illogical question that "if we can buy Vt-4s, artillery, drones & blabla so we can buy different types of 5th gen too...." >> I said, all the previous stuff is done on installments and we'll have to wait until those are matured both the platforms & the loans. We can't go on a shopping spree on a credit card like a mad man. Credit limit has reached already. Secondly, 5th gen platforms are nothing like tanks and other stuff. They are most difficult to maintain, most expensive to buy, operate and maintain. Even hourly cost of operation is mind blowing. You have to create a specific supply chain / similarity of vendor for practical purposes. Then you dedicate & commit to a specific platform invest in time investment & economic investment to create war doctrines, strategies over it. You need money even for the war exercises. You'll destroy your airforce by inducting different types within few year gaps.

Now I have some serious questions for you @Zarvan


1) Forget about 5th gen platforms. Can you give example from the past of a 4th gen platform. That PAF would have acquired a 4th gen platform and quickly inducted another one ? In the entire history PAF only inducted F-16s (in early 1980s & JF-17 in late 2000s). Now recently the J-10Cs (4.5 gen) . If PAF was smart enough to not make a silly mistake of adding massive burden & overhead of multiple advance platforms of different types than why do you think it will make such a stupid move now ? (and don't ever compare tanks, artillery or other stuff with 5th gen aircrafts)

2) How do you think PAF will create logistics around a platform if it buys totally different type of platforms all nearly in same timeline.

3) How many aircrafts of a single type should in PAF inventory before it should go for the next type?

4) Mix achaar of aircrafts is better OR different types is better for PAF ? by mix achaar, I mean: J-10Cs ( 50), J-31 (20), KAAN (10) OR J-10Cs ( 80+) & J-31 (30+) ?

5) What do think how many J-10Cs, how many J-31s and how many KAANs PAF will have by 2035 according to your thinking?


@Zarvan just answer 5 above questions, I will understand your point of view. Just answer point by point. We are not giving arguments for the sake of arguements. If you're arguements are valid than I should change my views and if mine have weight than you should change yours. If we don't then we'll just agree to disagree.

What you are failing to realize is how much things and mindset have changed since 2019. 2019 has proven to be a Eureka moment for Armed Forces of Pakistan.