JF-17 PFX program

You're confusing the means of achieving tactical objectives with the issue of aircraft development. We're discussing the development path of a specific type of aircraft, not MUM-T.

Mixed formations of manned and unmanned fighter jets are the future trend. No one denies this.

The development of a particular fighter jet only addresses one aspect of this tactical concept, not the entire picture.
Cars, buses, trucks... each has its own purpose. We cannot expect to develop one type of vehicle that can serve all purposes.
If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting Pakistan procure the J-35A, and go for a purely unmanned PFX design, to maximize performance (and presumably minimize expense). The concern I have from this is being able to control the fleet during heavy EW, and if the datalinks and AI are robust enough to perform the mission.
 
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If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting Pakistan procure the J-35A, and go for a purely unmanned PFX design, to maximize performance (and presumably minimize expense). The concern I have from this is being able to control the fleet during heavy EW, and if the datalinks and AI are robust enough to perform the mission.
Did I make such an implication? I was merely analyzing the JF-17 fighter jet platform. As for what kind of fighter jet the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) wants to buy, that's outside the scope of this discussion.

When analyzing the future development of the JF-17 fighter jet platform, we need to consider some fundamental logical principles:

Once, Rolls-Royce was the best car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Alienware was the best PC brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Ferrari was the best sports car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
...There are many such examples...

1. What constitutes a good product?
2. What is the positioning of the JF-17 fighter jet?
3. How can this "brand" survive?

Is the JF-17 fighter jet, a collection of high-tech subsystems, truly an excellent fighter jet product? ------ A JF-17B3 fighter jet equipped with a WS-19 engine would certainly cost more than a J-10CE fighter jet. Which fighter jet do you think customers (including the PAF) would choose to buy?
 
Did I make such an implication? I was merely analyzing the JF-17 fighter jet platform. As for what kind of fighter jet the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) wants to buy, that's outside the scope of this discussion.

When analyzing the future development of the JF-17 fighter jet platform, we need to consider some fundamental logical principles:

Once, Rolls-Royce was the best car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Alienware was the best PC brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Ferrari was the best sports car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
...There are many such examples...

1. What constitutes a good product?
2. What is the positioning of the JF-17 fighter jet?
3. How can this "brand" survive?

Is the JF-17 fighter jet, a collection of high-tech subsystems, truly an excellent fighter jet product? ------ A JF-17B3 fighter jet equipped with a WS-19 engine would certainly cost more than a J-10CE fighter jet. Which fighter jet do you think customers (including the PAF) would choose to buy?
How much a J-10C with WS-15 would cost? if the WS-10 is replaced in the J-10C?
 
How much a J-10C with WS-15 would cost? if the WS-10 is replaced in the J-10C?
Replacing the WS-10B engine on the J-10C fighter jet with the WS-15 engine is an ideal scenario. It doesn't present many technical obstacles, but there are significant practical hurdles.

Currently and in the future, the production of WS-15 engines will be absolutely prioritized for the J-20 series fighter jets, including both newly built and upgraded existing J-20s. Even if there is surplus WS-15 engine production capacity, it will be used for improvements and applications in the J-15/J-16 series fighter jets. The J-10C fighter jet is the lowest priority aircraft in the PLAAF's active fighter jet inventory, making the possibility of replacing its engine with the WS-15 extremely low, almost nonexistent.

The only variable is the export potential of the J-10CE fighter jet. If future sales of the J-10CE are very optimistic and reach a considerable level, then it's not impossible that CAC might design an upgraded version of the J-10C based on the WS-15 engine, initially for limited use in the PLAAF, and then marketed internationally by CATIC. This possibility exists, but it's very low.

Simply replacing the engine on the J-10C fighter jet is meaningless. Any engine upgrade would necessitate corresponding improvements to all subsystems. Therefore, the resulting price change is impossible to predict.
 
Being practical and keeping in mind rate of development in Chinese aviation. In what ways can the existing JF-17 Block 3 be improved upon further? Lets say we have a Block 4 variant come out in the mid 2030s.


Since PFX being an OCU program for the JF-17 is most likely outcome.

Currently, the technological level of various turbofan engines is roughly the same. That is, humanity has essentially pushed the technology to its limits. (There are some differences, but they are very small.)

The engine is the heart of a fighter jet. Once the engine's capabilities are largely determined, the overall capabilities of the fighter jet are also essentially fixed. All we can do is make different choices regarding the balance between various performance aspects. The engine can only adjust its performance by balancing different parameters, but its overall capability remains unchanged. That is, when you enhance one performance indicator, it will inevitably affect and reduce one or more other indicators.

The JF-17B3 fighter jet represents the pinnacle of all fighter aircraft using a single medium-thrust engine. While there is still room for improvement, that room is very small. A revolutionary upgrade would only be possible if there were a revolutionary leap in human technology, which is highly unlikely.

Therefore, we need to change our thinking: we need to change our definition of a fighter jet. ------ UCAV

Remove the fighter jet's cockpit and related human life support systems.
This will significantly reduce the aircraft's weight, safety redundancy, and energy consumption. These capabilities will be translated into enhanced aircraft capabilities:
Improved sensing capabilities: stronger radar and other detection equipment
Increased attack capabilities: larger weapons payload
Enhanced flight capabilities: greater maneuverability and flight range

Without such a significant change, it will be difficult to achieve a better upgrade path.

Last year's "September 3rd military parade" in China already told us a lot.

While there are always minor advancements, upgrades, or tweaks, I don't expect any major ones in Block-4. Personally, I believe Block-4 isn't focused on technological breakthroughs, but rather on significantly increasing the share of local and streamlined production. (Just my personal view, no insider information).
 
Did I make such an implication? I was merely analyzing the JF-17 fighter jet platform. As for what kind of fighter jet the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) wants to buy, that's outside the scope of this discussion.

When analyzing the future development of the JF-17 fighter jet platform, we need to consider some fundamental logical principles:

Once, Rolls-Royce was the best car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Alienware was the best PC brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
Once, Ferrari was the best sports car brand. ------ It was acquired by a "Inferior brand."
...There are many such examples...

1. What constitutes a good product?
2. What is the positioning of the JF-17 fighter jet?
3. How can this "brand" survive?

Is the JF-17 fighter jet, a collection of high-tech subsystems, truly an excellent fighter jet product? ------ A JF-17B3 fighter jet equipped with a WS-19 engine would certainly cost more than a J-10CE fighter jet. Which fighter jet do you think customers (including the PAF) would choose to buy?
The implication was that UCAVs are superior and a development pathway in that direction was best to optimize performance.

How much does a WS-19 cost?

Currently the engine maybe very expensive, but down the line, when hundreds of units are equipping PLAAF and PLANAF aircraft, the cost should come down. There should still remain a price difference between the JF-17B3 and the J-10CE, in favor of the JF-17B3.
 
While there are always minor advancements, upgrades, or tweaks, I don't expect any major ones in Block-4. Personally, I believe Block-4 isn't focused on technological breakthroughs, but rather on significantly increasing the share of local and streamlined production. (Just my personal view, no insider information).

imho - the focus for the JF17PFX programme should be :

a) add new weapons, new EW equipment, new mission computers if they are better, home grown AESA if it is better, cockpit redesign with Large Area Display.

b) make 100% of the airframe in Pakistan. Buy the heavy duty presses and equipment and make the plane in Pakistan and look to "amortize" the cost of the equipment over many projects where that equipment can be used in "years to come". This equipment has to be seen as a long term investment and not be narrowed into the business case/cost effectiveness of the PFX programme alone. Imagine if PAC had purchased the equipment to make more of the K8 than the 28% that it did, with that equipment, more of the JF17 could have been made in Pakistan from the outset than the 58% Pakistan is stuck at the moment at.

c) do not go down the rabbit hole of making airframe structural changes it cannot validate or certify or make changes to FBW that it does not know much about.
 
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Is the JF-17 fighter jet, a collection of high-tech subsystems, truly an excellent fighter jet product? ------ A JF-17B3 fighter jet equipped with a WS-19 engine would certainly cost more than a J-10CE fighter jet. Which fighter jet do you think customers (including the PAF) would choose to buy?
Outdated thinking. Even if the engine cost double, the price spike would only be 5-10 million. Making it on par with J-10CE or even less. The main advantage is power and efficiency, the newer engines of China are now just entering what Roll Royce and GE had in the early 2000's. So the JF-17 could theocratically have more powerful avionics and allow room for Pakistan to develop better avionics for the jet, which could be more inefficient yet more powerful. Basically redesigning the outer frame slightly and adding new avionics. Also UCAV are not the main future of air combat, idk about Chinese but in arms-race Mao-dun is used about a weapon and it's counter measures, so basically UCAV might be flashy rn but soon enough a strong enough electronic countermeasure would come and basically make them ineffective. Much like how anti-air missiles made CAS completely redundant as a separate category. So no, the JF-17 has no parallels in the PLA as it is Grippen style take, infact the PLA has little to no experience in innovation in air hence why they're greenlighting all projects just cuz they have the funds. It's nothing new, infact the US did the same strats post-war allowing the technological creep that allowed US and West to dominate. So what Pakistan has for Block 4 is still speculation, however it's gonna be a larger airframe and redesign body. As you said, J-10 is a outdated design for the PLAAF, mainly due to it not having integrated EW or strong radar compared to the Flanker copies(as big radar in Pacific go brr), plus it's early role is completely redundant in the next decade. Compared to a new redesign JF-17, which could be enlarge and have a few structural changes to give it better rcs along with more effective EW integration room than the J-10. Props to Yang Wei ngl, he design this aircraft extremely good as apart from the size and a few changes because of requirements, the aircraft is a solid transitioning aircraft. Again assumptions, the choice of PAF is dependent on the requirements they have for the aircraft which could be different for each nation and their philosophy. PAF has a independent spirit for their air that is different compared to PLA or IAF, radar or range or electronics, everything is based on the requirements of the airforce. The J-10 is still a fantastic aircraft for many nation, while the Flanker is mediocre at best however due to Chinese land mass and other requirements they need to choose an effectively worse off aircraft. Tldr; don't make assumptions based upon your own nation's choices, China has dwindling pilot rollout hence they invest in unmanned craft, not because they're good but they can't risk a single pilot compared to PAF who has nearly 2.2 pilot for every craft making the craft more important than the pilot.
 
imho - the focus for the JF17PFX programme should be :

a) add new weapons, new EW equipment, new mission computers if they are better, home grown AESA if it is better, cockpit redesign with Large Area Display.

b) make 100% of the airframe in Pakistan. Buy the heavy duty presses and equipment and make the plane in Pakistan and look to "amortize" the cost of the equipment over many projects where that equipment can be used in "years to come". This equipment has to be seen as a long term investment and not be narrowed into the business case/cost effectiveness of the PFX programme alone. Imagine if PAC had purchased the equipment to make more of the K8 than the 28% that it did, with that equipment, more of the JF17 could have been made in Pakistan from the outset than the 58% Pakistan is stuck at the moment at.

c) do not go down the rabbit hole of making airframe structural changes it cannot validate or certify or make changes to FBW that it does not know much about.
First is a good choice. Rest are braindead, I mean Michael has addressed the second point idk atleast 20 times? Cost are a thing, unless the Chinese are becoming hostile, why should we waste an extra 100k on equipment purchases and airframe parts per airframe built if the Chinese can give them to us directly? The US sources most of it's aircraft parts from Europe, same with Europe and Korea. Doesn't mean anything, just braindead nationalism at work which is only good against braindead Indians who say their Tejas airframe is made 100% in India while they source nearly 85% of the avionics from abroad. Sure we can try and build our own presses, helping out our indeginous aerospace sector but that is a completely different point and does not require us to make 100% of the airframe. The third point is something that is good, changing and redesigning aircraft are important. Like compare the YF-17 to the F/A-18, or the Legacy Hornets to the latter Superhornets. The FBW can be changed and it's okay, having a refined product three years later is better than a mess that gets shit added on. Like look at the Tejas, no major changes to the airframe or new redesign, just chugging shit in and the reward is a barely functioning aircraft.
 
The implication was that UCAVs are superior and a development pathway in that direction was best to optimize performance.
It's not that the UCAV is inherently superior, but rather that, given the technological development path of the JF-17, developing a UCAV is the optimal solution under current technological conditions.
1. The performance of turbofan engines of comparable size has already approached the limits of this technological path. The engine's performance determines what it can do.
2. The core positioning of the JF-17 fighter jet is "lightweight" and "low-cost." Within this framework, further pursuit of extreme performance is limited. Breaking this framework means it would no longer be a JF-17.
Much of the speculation and analysis of the JF-17 PFX on this forum goes beyond this framework. Once this framework is broken, more complex factors need to be considered. Politics and economics would become its biggest obstacles.
How much does a WS-19 cost?
The exact price is unknown, but it's definitely not cheap.
What is known is that the WS-21 engine purchased by Pakistan cost 100 million RMB per unit.
Excluding other factors, the unit price is estimated to be over 10 million US dollars.
The WS-19 engine will certainly be more expensive than the WS-21 engine. I estimate the price to be between 15 and 20 million US dollars. However, several years from now, the final production cost of the WS-19 engine may be even lower than that of the WS-21 engine. This is due to the production system. But the selling price may not necessarily be lower.
Outdated thinking. Even if the engine cost double, the price spike would only be 5-10 million. Making it on par with J-10CE or even less. The main advantage is power and efficiency, the newer engines of China are now just entering what Roll Royce and GE had in the early 2000's. So the JF-17 could theocratically have more powerful avionics and allow room for Pakistan to develop better avionics for the jet, which could be more inefficient yet more powerful. Basically redesigning the outer frame slightly and adding new avionics. Also UCAV are not the main future of air combat, idk about Chinese but in arms-race Mao-dun is used about a weapon and it's counter measures, so basically UCAV might be flashy rn but soon enough a strong enough electronic countermeasure would come and basically make them ineffective. Much like how anti-air missiles made CAS completely redundant as a separate category. So no, the JF-17 has no parallels in the PLA as it is Grippen style take, infact the PLA has little to no experience in innovation in air hence why they're greenlighting all projects just cuz they have the funds. It's nothing new, infact the US did the same strats post-war allowing the technological creep that allowed US and West to dominate. So what Pakistan has for Block 4 is still speculation, however it's gonna be a larger airframe and redesign body. As you said, J-10 is a outdated design for the PLAAF, mainly due to it not having integrated EW or strong radar compared to the Flanker copies(as big radar in Pacific go brr), plus it's early role is completely redundant in the next decade. Compared to a new redesign JF-17, which could be enlarge and have a few structural changes to give it better rcs along with more effective EW integration room than the J-10. Props to Yang Wei ngl, he design this aircraft extremely good as apart from the size and a few changes because of requirements, the aircraft is a solid transitioning aircraft. Again assumptions, the choice of PAF is dependent on the requirements they have for the aircraft which could be different for each nation and their philosophy. PAF has a independent spirit for their air that is different compared to PLA or IAF, radar or range or electronics, everything is based on the requirements of the airforce. The J-10 is still a fantastic aircraft for many nation, while the Flanker is mediocre at best however due to Chinese land mass and other requirements they need to choose an effectively worse off aircraft. Tldr; don't make assumptions based upon your own nation's choices, China has dwindling pilot rollout hence they invest in unmanned craft, not because they're good but they can't risk a single pilot compared to PAF who has nearly 2.2 pilot for every craft making the craft more important than the pilot.
Friend, I cannot answer your question. The premise of your discussion is fundamentally flawed.
I suggest you consult more resources and update your knowledge base.
 
First is a good choice. Rest are braindead, I mean Michael has addressed the second point idk atleast 20 times? Cost are a thing, unless the Chinese are becoming hostile, why should we waste an extra 100k on equipment purchases and airframe parts per airframe built if the Chinese can give them to us directly?

Because you lose automomy to develop products that meet your needs, versus buying what meets China's needs and hoping you can adopt it for your own needs.

If cost efficiency is the only driver, why bother with any of the in structure and manufacturing of any aspect of the JF17 in Pakistan?? Surely, it would have been "cheaper" to purchase fully manufactured planes directly from Chinese manufacturers? Why incur all the cost of building new buildings, infrastructure and people in Pakistan ? There must have been a good reason for it? There were two manufacturing lines for JF17, one in China and one in Pakistan. All that cost extra money.

The US sources most of it's aircraft parts from Europe, same with Europe and Korea. Doesn't mean anything, just braindead nationalism at work which is only good against braindead Indians who say their Tejas airframe is made 100% in India while they source nearly 85% of the avionics from abroad. Sure we can try and build our own presses, helping out our indeginous aerospace sector but that is a completely different point and does not require us to make 100% of the airframe. The third point is something that is good, changing and redesigning aircraft are important. Like compare the YF-17 to the F/A-18, or the Legacy Hornets to the latter Superhornets. The FBW can be changed and it's okay, having a refined product three years later is better than a mess that gets shit added on. Like look at the Tejas, no major changes to the airframe or new redesign, just chugging shit in and the reward is a barely functioning aircraft.

Flawed logic. Won't spend time on this at all.
 
It's not that the UCAV is inherently superior, but rather that, given the technological development path of the JF-17, developing a UCAV is the optimal solution under current technological conditions.
1. The performance of turbofan engines of comparable size has already approached the limits of this technological path. The engine's performance determines what it can do.
2. The core positioning of the JF-17 fighter jet is "lightweight" and "low-cost." Within this framework, further pursuit of extreme performance is limited. Breaking this framework means it would no longer be a JF-17.
Much of the speculation and analysis of the JF-17 PFX on this forum goes beyond this framework. Once this framework is broken, more complex factors need to be considered. Politics and economics would become its biggest obstacles.

The exact price is unknown, but it's definitely not cheap.
What is known is that the WS-21 engine purchased by Pakistan cost 100 million RMB per unit.
Excluding other factors, the unit price is estimated to be over 10 million US dollars.
The WS-19 engine will certainly be more expensive than the WS-21 engine. I estimate the price to be between 15 and 20 million US dollars. However, several years from now, the final production cost of the WS-19 engine may be even lower than that of the WS-21 engine. This is due to the production system. But the selling price may not necessarily be lower.

Friend, I cannot answer your question. The premise of your discussion is fundamentally flawed.
I suggest you consult more resources and update your knowledge base.
I understand better what you mean now; if we are focused on limited costs; then a UCAV makes sense. While if we are going beyond the original framework, the resulting aircraft is no longer a JF-17.

IMHO, the PFX is expected to be the size of the JF-17 but more capable. If the aircraft shares the WS-21 from the J-35A it can allow commonality of maintenance and availability across the fleet of both types.

The argument could easily be made that the J-10CE exceeds what the JF-17 could ever do; with its current affordable engines providing higher thrust, but I suspect the PAF wants to get as close to a mini-J-35A as it can with a PFX; manned and lower signature. Compromises will have to be made to keep costs down, and that will result in performance limitations initially; until the WS-19 becomes available and economical to replace in a midlife upgrade. The WS-19, by then, should allow for enough electrical power to help control unmanned platforms via the avionics.

But considering the heavy SAM threat, as well as the heavy EW environment, a manned light-medium fighter seems to be the desired product.

As for the economics; I suspect a platform of such a design, could appeal to the Saudis and they maybe willing to fund the development of a manned and unmanned version. For use by the Saudi Air Force as well as air forces allied with Saudi Arabia.
 
I understand better what you mean now; if we are focused on limited costs; then a UCAV makes sense. While if we are going beyond the original framework, the resulting aircraft is no longer a JF-17.

IMHO, the PFX is expected to be the size of the JF-17 but more capable. If the aircraft shares the WS-21 from the J-35A it can allow commonality of maintenance and availability across the fleet of both types.

The argument could easily be made that the J-10CE exceeds what the JF-17 could ever do; with its current affordable engines providing higher thrust, but I suspect the PAF wants to get as close to a mini-J-35A as it can with a PFX; manned and lower signature. Compromises will have to be made to keep costs down, and that will result in performance limitations initially; until the WS-19 becomes available and economical to replace in a midlife upgrade. The WS-19, by then, should allow for enough electrical power to help control unmanned platforms via the avionics.

But considering the heavy SAM threat, as well as the heavy EW environment, a manned light-medium fighter seems to be the desired product.

As for the economics; I suspect a platform of such a design, could appeal to the Saudis and they maybe willing to fund the development of a manned and unmanned version. For use by the Saudi Air Force as well as air forces allied with Saudi Arabia.
If Pakistan develops the JF-17 within its existing framework, then it's solely a matter for Pakistan.

However, if Pakistan attempts to develop it beyond this framework, then it's no longer just a matter for Pakistan; it becomes an international collaborative issue.

I don't want to discuss this further.
People from different countries have completely different perspectives and ways of thinking, making it impossible to reach a consensus. The people on this forum lack real-world experience in international affairs and are powerless to change anything.
This kind of discussion is pointless.
Therefore, until there is more concrete official news, our discussion should best remain within this framework.
 
While there are always minor advancements, upgrades, or tweaks, I don't expect any major ones in Block-4. Personally, I believe Block-4 isn't focused on technological breakthroughs, but rather on significantly increasing the share of local and streamlined production. (Just my personal view, no insider information).
What's the point of local production if there is no export orders.
 
air commodore Khalid Chisti shared on YouTube video. Hahaha
OK. If he is the one revealed it then it's certainly is NOT PFX whatever it is. I guess only real update about PFX will come during this years IDEAS in Nov. Before that whatever we hear or listen is part of noise.
 

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