JF-17 PFX program

[JamD]

Let me just say one thing. Going at it alone is essentially impossible for everyone except China, Russia, and USA. Everyone else MUST have partners. Pakistan, with the anemic/nonexistent aircraft R&D infrastructure, for SURE needs to have partners. In fact, Pakistan needs a program to join rather than start a program (like Azm or PFX) and expect someone else to join. It is simply a matter of technological hierarchy. Why would Turkey or China wish to become Pakistan's junior partner in a Pakistani project? We don't even have money to offer.

We (PAF/Pakistan) needs to think about what we want. Do we want:
1) An integrator aerospace industry (Sweden)
2) A largely local aerospace industry that operates with some foreign inputs that are being reduced (Turkiye)
3) A 100% local aerospace industry (China, USA)

Once we know the goal then we can decide our best coarse of action. For example Azm was definitely an attempt at 3 (forgoing the opportunity to join TFX). PFX seems like either 2 or 3. This is exactly the problem I am talking about - the policy goal isn't clear (and likely even thought about). Just a project was started because apparently that's how their world works.

Pakistan's best bet to be 1 or 2 is by searching the world for EXISTING projects that it can join. If we are lucky we can get a specialized product. This is a spectrum of course - J10CE to JF17 to something else (realistic PFX)? We can't both have little capacity and be delusional about our capability. Aik to ghareeb, ooper say badtameez.

 

[FuturePAF]

My analysis may not meet the expectations of my Pakistani friends.

IMO,
The JF-17 PFX will be a true 4.5th-generation fighter jet and will increase the proportion of local work done by Pakistan (PAC and other relevant organizations). Its appearance will not be significantly or noticeably different from existing fighter jets.

* According to Chinese military standards, neither the JF-17B3 nor the J-10C/CE meets the criteria for a 4.5th-generation fighter jet.

What aircraft meets the Chinese military standard for 4.5th-generation fighter jet?

 

[FuturePAF]

Let me just say one thing. Going at it alone is essentially impossible for everyone except China, Russia, and USA. Everyone else MUST have partners. Pakistan, with the anemic/nonexistent aircraft R&D infrastructure, for SURE needs to have partners. In fact, Pakistan needs a program to join rather than start a program (like Azm or PFX) and expect someone else to join. It is simply a matter of technological hierarchy. Why would Turkey or China wish to become Pakistan's junior partner in a Pakistani project? We don't even have money to offer.

We (PAF/Pakistan) needs to think about what we want. Do we want:
1) An integrator aerospace industry (Sweden)
2) A largely local aerospace industry that operates with some foreign inputs that are being reduced (Turkiye)
3) A 100% local aerospace industry (China, USA)

Once we know the goal then we can decide our best coarse of action. For example Azm was definitely an attempt at 3 (forgoing the opportunity to join TFX). PFX seems like either 2 or 3. This is exactly the problem I am talking about - the policy goal isn't clear (and likely even thought about). Just a project was started because apparently that's how their world works.

Pakistan's best bet to be 1 or 2 is by searching the world for EXISTING projects that it can join. If we are lucky we can get a specialized product. This is a spectrum of course - J10CE to JF17 to something else (realistic PFX)? We can't both have little capacity and be delusional about our capability. Aik to ghareeb, ooper say badtameez.

Would go for one of the Single engine designs studied by Türkiye, when they were developing their KAAN program be a good choice?

The FX-06 option, with the proposed TF-35000 engine would have nearly the same TWR as the F-35. A version without an internal weapons bay could be more affordable. The 4.5 gen design the PAF may want, if the costs can be controlled. We would have to see how far along the Turks were in the R&D on the design though.

 

[JamD]

Would go for one of the Single engine designs studied by Türkiye, when they were developing their KAAN program be a good choice?

The FX-06 option, with the proposed TF-35000 engine would have nearly the same TWR as the F-35. A version without an internal weapons bay could be more affordable. The 4.5 gen design the PAF may want, if the costs can be controlled. We would have to see how far along the Turks were in the R&D on the design though.

No. These were just conceptual designs. There was no work done on these for actual design. I'm saying Pakistan needs to join an existing aircraft program and try to localize it. We need to have the humility to learn.

 

[Oscar]

No. These were just conceptual designs. There was no work done on these for actual design. I'm saying Pakistan needs to join an existing aircraft program and try to localize it. We need to have the humility to learn.

I'm going to get Flak for this - but "Imam Mahdi is coming, look busy" is the name of the game.

 

[Bratva]

I'm going to get Flak for this - but "Imam Mahdi is coming, look busy" is the name of the game.

2026/2027 is when UFO's/Aliens/Nordic Beings with Blue eyes/Dajjal would appear on Planet earth

 

[JamD]

2026/2027 is when UFO's/Aliens/Nordic Beings with Blue eyes/Dajjal would appear on Planet earth

Chabis main to dunya khatam hai

 

[puttputt]

Let me just say one thing. Going at it alone is essentially impossible for everyone except China, Russia, and USA. Everyone else MUST have partners. Pakistan, with the anemic/nonexistent aircraft R&D infrastructure, for SURE needs to have partners. In fact, Pakistan needs a program to join rather than start a program (like Azm or PFX) and expect someone else to join. It is simply a matter of technological hierarchy. Why would Turkey or China wish to become Pakistan's junior partner in a Pakistani project? We don't even have money to offer.

We (PAF/Pakistan) needs to think about what we want. Do we want:
1) An integrator aerospace industry (Sweden)
2) A largely local aerospace industry that operates with some foreign inputs that are being reduced (Turkiye)
3) A 100% local aerospace industry (China, USA)

Once we know the goal then we can decide our best coarse of action. For example Azm was definitely an attempt at 3 (forgoing the opportunity to join TFX). PFX seems like either 2 or 3. This is exactly the problem I am talking about - the policy goal isn't clear (and likely even thought about). Just a project was started because apparently that's how their world works.

Pakistan's best bet to be 1 or 2 is by searching the world for EXISTING projects that it can join. If we are lucky we can get a specialized product. This is a spectrum of course - J10CE to JF17 to something else (realistic PFX)? We can't both have little capacity and be delusional about our capability. Aik to ghareeb, ooper say badtameez.

The best approach was:

1. Joining KAAN as a founding junior partner with decent co-production rights and domestic capacity to carry out custom integration and testing.

2. Supporting the KAAN with a Pakistani UCAV program, starting with a 2-3-ton loyal wingman spec'ed for A2A (basically guaranteeing our involvement in the Anka-3 more or less, but via NESCOM).

3. Procuring J-10CEs off-the-shelf and JF-17C Block-3s against any delay in the KAAN and its supporting ecosystem.

 

[JamD]

The best approach was:

1. Joining KAAN as a founding junior partner with decent co-production rights and domestic capacity to carry out custom integration and testing.

2. Supporting the KAAN with a Pakistani UCAV program, starting with a 2-3-ton loyal wingman spec'ed for A2A (basically guaranteeing our involvement in the Anka-3 more or less, but via NESCOM).

3. Procuring J-10CEs off-the-shelf and JF-17C Block-3s against any delay in the KAAN and its supporting ecosystem.

Kaan was such a super missed opportunity.

Remember the PaKiStaAnI EngINe3rs WoRkING at kAaN? they were originally sent with the mission to...wait for it...decide if it was better to join Kaan or pursue Azm...for 2 years they were supposed to figure this out. Just imagine the hubris of our people. Sonay pe suhaga. At the end of this period Azm was cancelled and Pakistan was basically too late and unwilling to join Kaan. Kaheen kay nahin rahay. I remember all the "ThE TuRKS dONt Kn0W wh@t th3y R d0iNG", especially from the PAF guys I met, especially especially from the PAF guys that ended up going to Kaan. I just need to smoke whatever they smoke. Like being a Trump supporter - living in your reality despite facts you can literally see.

I'm sorry, I was just too close to the Kaan-PAF fiasco. No point in crying over spilled milk.

 

[Cipher212]

Kaan was such a super missed opportunity.

Remember the PaKiStaAnI EngINe3rs WoRkING at kAaN? they were originally sent with the mission to...wait for it...decide if it was better to join Kaan or pursue Azm...for 2 years they were supposed to figure this out. Just imagine the hubris of our people. Sonay pe suhaga. At the end of this period Azm was cancelled and Pakistan was basically too late and unwilling to join Kaan. Kaheen kay nahin rahay. I remember all the "ThE TuRKS dONt Kn0W wh@t th3y R d0iNG", especially from the PAF guys I met, especially especially from the PAF guys that ended up going to Kaan. I just need to smoke whatever they smoke. Like being a Trump supporter - living in your reality despite facts you can literally see.

I'm sorry, I was just too close to the Kaan-PAF fiasco. No point in crying over spilled milk.

Nice, paid trip to Turkey doing F all. I'm sure family members went as well.

 

[mythbuster]

Kaan was such a super missed opportunity.

Remember the PaKiStaAnI EngINe3rs WoRkING at kAaN? they were originally sent with the mission to...wait for it...decide if it was better to join Kaan or pursue Azm...for 2 years they were supposed to figure this out. Just imagine the hubris of our people. Sonay pe suhaga. At the end of this period Azm was cancelled and Pakistan was basically too late and unwilling to join Kaan. Kaheen kay nahin rahay. I remember all the "ThE TuRKS dONt Kn0W wh@t th3y R d0iNG", especially from the PAF guys I met, especially especially from the PAF guys that ended up going to Kaan. I just need to smoke whatever they smoke. Like being a Trump supporter - living in your reality despite facts you can literally see.

I'm sorry, I was just too close to the Kaan-PAF fiasco. No point in crying over spilled milk.

Well , you can look at it from another angle ..Pak engineer went to Turkey / kaan , got the training and came back ... realized that kaan project is faraway from completion , j 35 is a better option....Azm is too ambitious , let's settle for pfx ... anything wrong ?

 

[JamD]

Well , you can look at it from another angle ..Pak engineer went to Turkey / kaan , got the training and came back ... realized that kaan project is faraway from completion , j 35 is a better option....Azm is too ambitious , let's settle for pfx ... anything wrong ?

Unfortunately that's not what happened.
1. The folks sent were not senior enough and anything they reported wasnt given any importance.
2. Azm was canceled way before they came back.
3. Azm was canceled by changing PAF leadership when they realized it was a personality driven black hole and that person didn't get along well with new leadership.
4. The Turks kept Pakistanis at a distance after some shit they pulled there. So they learnt a little only.
5. Whatever they learnt was spread SO thin across the people who basically went back to their jobs it made no difference to Pakistan.
6. J35 is a purely Sidhu project, which obviously came much later.
7. Had PAF learned lessons from Azm then PFX would've been much different and collaborative program. It is less advanced than Azm and more resources are being dumped into it. But the strategy of hubris is the same. Like I said Azm was cancelled due to clash of personality not some learning.

So your another angle is unfortunately cope and hope by stretching facts that don't fit into a hopium narrative.

Sorry if I am being rude. I got triggered lol.

 

[JamD]

Nice, paid trip to Turkey doing F all. I'm sure family members went as well.

You bet.

 

[hasssanali8998]

The Turks kept Pakistanis at a distance after some shit they pulled there

can we get anymore information

 

[JamD]

can we get anymore information

no. par jaltay hain.