JF-17 PFX program

[MastanKhan]

But Has JF-17 block 3 reached the limit of what u can do with that airframe?

Hi,

Yes it had---right from the day it was produced 20 odd years ago---the JF17 was tad bit smaller than it should have been.

But then that does not make much of a difference now---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sorry my friend, but the day Pakistan has something on offer that es technically more advanced than the Rafale is something you and I will never witness.

And evening it ever reaches something like, then please consider how old the Rafale is already and what’s available then!

Hi,

I am no Friend of yours---so don't address me in that category---.

You will always remain an adversary---.

 

[RAJPUT]

Aviation city is another. Al Khalid 3. Pakistan was supposedly working on a mini sub a long time ago, which went nowhere. Pakistan was going to buy new rifles on a large scale (even had multiple competitions over the years) which went nowhere as well. The Pakistani version of cornershot, again has gone nowhere. Taimoor ICBM, completely abandoned after years of development.

I'm sure there's others as well.

The thing about Pakistan and strategic tech is that it is only announced to the public when the armed forces feel like it.
Aviation city was a property dealers wet dream within the air force. Al Khalid was supposed to be what the VT4 already was, hence didn’t need to reinvent the wheel. The mini sub thing was entirely speculative from uninformed users. The rifles did not fulfil the requirements put forward hence none has been selected, and it proved to be beneficial in the longer run as our domestic small arms manufacturers have put effort into making indigenous designs which should have been the decision from the get go. The cornershot or the POF Eye to be exact has been used in multiple counter terrorism raids and to great effect. Other than these, please enlighten me how do you know that the Taimoor ICBM has been abandoned? It was being worked on and probably completed in the Musharaf era. We do not NEED it as of NOW. Although when the time comes, and we do face existential threat from a foe from far away lands, you bet ya a** it will be unveiled.

 

[Be dazzled]

I'm all for cutting organizations lose of armed forces. It's the only way they can optimally perform. I wish to see the day.

 

[TAC]

Aviation city is another. Al Khalid 3. Pakistan was supposedly working on a mini sub a long time ago, which went nowhere. Pakistan was going to buy new rifles on a large scale (even had multiple competitions over the years) which went nowhere as well. The Pakistani version of cornershot, again has gone nowhere. Taimoor ICBM, completely abandoned after years of development.

I'm sure there's others as well.

Did you read my post before replying to it - I specifically said related to PAF??

 

[TAC]

I highly doubt the project will see day, unless china funds on long term loan, the way pakistan enconomy going, at time, where most of the world is struggling to keep the cost optimised for R&D and building these expensive fighters. I dont think Pakistan afford it as now,may be 5 yrs from now if things get better for their economy or it becomes a joint project between a few countries

Whatever helps you sleep better. Are you also one of those who was adamant that JF-17 would never fly in PAF colours because your ally Russia had assured you it would never allow its engine?

 

[That_Guy]

Did you read my post before replying to it - I specifically said related to PAF??

Ah, my mistake.

Sabre-2 was a failure. Paf has previously trued to develop AAMs, and engines, both failures.

 

[RAJPUT]

Ah, my mistake.

Sabre-2 was a failure. Paf has previously trued to develop AAMs, and engines, both failures.

So if someone faces a failure, or two, he should shove his head into the ground like an ostrich and count his days. Insane logic.

 

[That_Guy]

The thing about Pakistan and strategic tech is that it is only announced to the public when the armed forces feel like it.

Everyone keeps saying this, but it's clearly not true. You just have to look at IDEAS to prove my point.

Aviation city was a property dealers wet dream within the air force.

Doesn't change my point.

Al Khalid was supposed to be what the VT4 already was, hence didn’t need to reinvent the wheel.

Which, again, proves my point. It was abandoned.

The mini sub thing was entirely speculative from uninformed users.

Nope, I remember there were articles and official statements written about it.

The rifles did not fulfil the requirements put forward hence none has been selected, and it proved to be beneficial in the longer run as our domestic small arms manufacturers have put effort into making indigenous designs which should have been the decision from the get go.

Yes and no. Which it has been somewhat beneficial for the domestic MIC, the rifles did meet requirements, but it was decided that the benefits weren't worth the cost, when the G-3 fulfills the same criteria (in other words, no money). The rejection happened when the country was on the verge of bankruptcy.

The cornershot or the POF Eye to be exact has been used in multiple counter terrorism raids and to great effect.

No evidence of this.

Other than these, please enlighten me how do you know that the Taimoor ICBM has been abandoned? It was being worked on and probably completed in the Musharaf era. We do not NEED it as of NOW. Although when the time comes, and we do face existential threat from a foe from far away lands, you bet ya a** it will be unveiled.

How do I know? There is no evidence to say it was completed, otherwise we would have had India and the US crying about it.

You're just trying to push your own wants onto Pakistan.

 

[JamD]

Would this be the right time to work on a C-130 replacement? Would that help develop some of the capabilities you have outlined?

No. If there's anything to be taken away from my post it is that we should focus on low-hanging fruit. I really think UCAVs are a niche that we can get into with RELATIVELY smaller investment. C-130 replacement is unrealistic for several reasons:
1. We will never use or sell enough airframes to justify the development costs
2. A transport aircraft is still a complicated aircraft that needs all of the things in existence before development starts.

 

[TAC]

I want to play the devil's advocate here:

1. Manpower: Physical humans exist, yes. People with requisite skills and knowledge, no. I know I keep repeating the Turkish Aerospace example ad nauseam but it is a good example and one I know well. Look at how much more developed their human resource is than us. And yet they felt the need to get BAE folks to help on Ka'an. Also, I can tell you that the majority of the Turkish people working on Ka'an had experience working on Hurjet and Hurkus. Unfortunately, we don't have such human resource. The people that worked in China on the JF-17 were few and have long since retired (early or natural).

2. Computational infrastructure: Again, you are underestimating the amount of compute time needed. I actually interfaced with the NUST HPC and the TA HPC. You essentially need a ridiculously large HPC that is dedicated to you. Those HPCs were really bad for "us" because we were constantly in lines waiting for our jobs to run. If the CFD you need tomorrow, takes three weeks in line then you are basically screwed. If you were starting an aircraft program, you better have a dedicated high capacity HPC. Pakistan would have to make one for PFX. The current HPCs are used for various other things and are running over capacity if anything.

3.Windtunnels: We have very few and they aren't instrumented well enough due to the restrictions on Pakistan. Again sorry to bring in TA example but for Ka'an they reached out to every wind tunnel on the planet (even us) because you need so much WT time and data. And they have and have built some really nice WTs locally too. So you can't expect to run a fighter program with 3-4 poorly equipped WTs.

4. Machining: You need mass precision machining. We do have machines at AMF that were imported for the JF-17. This is the thing that we do have. Capacity might be a bottle neck here because those CNC centers are few.

5. Surface treatment: This is well established in PAC.

6. Composite manufacture: You can make composites in your garage if you wanted. But they won't be aerospace grade composites. I know for a fact the quality issues that SPD orgs face with respect to composite parts. Tolerances and strength and repeatability are terrible. These things are acceptable for UAVs. But these parts are not fit for actual aircraft. You need very large autoclaves and carefully controlled environments. You need layup machines. Now PAC is in the process of establishing such a facility but like all things, it is a weirdly broken endeavor where they are doing lots of things wrong that will greatly limit the capacity of what they are about to establish. Basically, the knowledge on how to make aerospace grade composites does NOT exist in Pakistan - let alone the infrastructure for it.

7. CAD/CAM: I think of that as machining so discussed already.

8. Digital Design: Sure yes. But this relates to 1. It is quite easy to design something on a computer. But only experience tells you what you should really be desiging on a computer.

The other advanced things you listed shouldn't even be priority. First you need to fix all of the above.


9. System design: Again, this relates to 1. We don't have the knowhow to design a system as complicated as a jet. A UAV is MUUUCH simpler than a jet.

10. Software capability: Yes, we do have the ability to create software. But this capacity would need to be expanded and refined relating to point 1. Firstly, you need a LOT of people to develop code for an aircraft. Every single system has code. Then you also need this code to conform to aerospace standards - you need experts for this. Then you also need to develop code based on experience developing code for aerospace systems - I don't know if we have people with such experience - maybe we do, maybe we don't.

11. Board design. Yes.

12. Harness. Yes.

13. Electro optics: Yes but very limited. There's a lot of room for improvement.

14. Chip design. Sure.




I think more important than what you have listed is what you have not listed.
1. Certification and testing facilities: Each and every single structural part down from the coupon level to entire assemblies to aircraft is tested under all kinds of loads. You need entire setups that do this sort of testing using specialized, large, and expensive machines. We have no such facility or even the knowledge of such things.
2. Control system design expertise: You need full control of your flight-control system stack and you can't be treating it like the holy-magic-that-cant-be-toched. You need this control so you can do modifications (including stores) at will. Unfortunately, Pakistan has a dearth of controls people because PAF babbus only ever specialized in structures or aerodynamics (not that they have any real-world design experience in that either) and any civilians left the country or some were absorbed by SPD orgs. The ones absorbed by SPD orgs were dumbed down and the very few that resisted that specialized in UAVs and missiles, which are much simpler than aircraft when it comes to control. This also relates to human resource again - you need controls people experienced in the developing of control systems for actual aircraft. It is not as trivial a task as some people might be thinking here.
3. Data fusion expertise: Again this relates to HR but what I mean is the ability to combine ALL of the systems into a single aircraft computer. For example, radar tracks need to be correlated with EOTS tracks, and this information may need to be given to the targetting computer. All of this data fusion requires some very specific expertise, which is definitely not present in Pakistan. Just installing an AESA radar is not enough - you need the aircraft to be able to use it to track and target enemy aircraft efficiently, do jamming, also link with data-link, interface with missile-warning sensors. Lots of software things are behind what make great AESA radars great - not just having the hardware. This is primarily where Pakistan's AESA radar and AN/APG81 would be different. What I mean is that if you gave Pakistan's hardware to Northrup Grumman, they would come up with software that would make your radar murder its competition.


There are very likely many many more things that I cannot possibly remember or list. The point is that you need an entire ecosystem that takes decades to develop. You start simple and slowly build your capability - like TA has over decades. It is quite unrealistic to get everything in 6 years, when you basically have very surface level capabilities. Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer but sometimes realism gets lost on this forum and the things I talk about are only appreciable once you analyze things with a little more patience and a fine comb.

As I’ve already said repeatedly on this thread Pakistan will need considerable help if this project is going to be a success. Sure they want indigenous control and understanding of as much of the jet as possible but that should not be confused with the concept that they intend to do everything alone. If that was the case, lack of indigenous engine would kill the project dead long before we got into any detail.

 

[JamD]

As I’ve already said repeatedly on this thread Pakistan will need considerable help if this project is going to be a success. Sure they want indigenous control and understanding of as much of the jet as possible but that should not be confused with the concept that they intend to do everything alone. If that was the case, lack of indigenous engine would kill the project dead long before we got into any detail.

Help is what BAE is doing for TA by sending 200 senior research engineers to develop Ka'an. Help is what China did in setting up a partial assembly line for the JF-17.

Help is NOT standing up an entire industry/ecosystem in a few years out of nothing.

 

[TAC]

Help is what BAE is doing for TA by sending 200 senior research engineers to develop Ka'an. Help is what China did in setting up a partial assembly line for the JF-17.

Help is NOT standing up an entire industry/ecosystem in a few years out of nothing.

So without knowing really very much about this fighter, other than that it’s aimed at being 4.5+ generation, has some stealth / low observe ability / features, that Pakistan want indigenous control of it as much as possible —- no % of the indigenous control defined / known, no idea what help they plan / hope to get to that stage and who from, heck we don’t even know how much different it will look to the JF-17, you’ve concluded that it can’t be done?
Perhaps it will come to nothing but perhaps we should also wait and see as opposed to rushing to kill it in the crib based on still very limited details.

 

[JamD]

So without knowing really very much about this fighter, other than that it’s aimed at being 4.5+ generation, has some stealth / low observe ability / features, that Pakistan want indigenous control of it as much as possible —- no % of the indigenous control defined / known, no idea what help they plan / hope to get to that stage and who from, heck we don’t even know how much different it will look to the JF-17, you’ve concluded that it can’t be done?
Perhaps it will come to nothing but perhaps we should also wait and see as opposed to rushing to kill it in the crib based on still very limited details.

Firstly, I have no power to kill PFX and neither does anyone on this forum most likely. We are here discussing the merits of aircraft development. I responded to a posters listing of things needed for aircraft development with a detailed version that I thought was more accurate based on my personal experience.

To respond to your assertion about uncertainty about PFX, I will maintain that unless PFX is a JF17 2.0 program, Pakistan is NOT equipped to handle it. And we have strong reasons to believe that PFX is not JF17 2.0 - for starters China is conspicuously absent from its partners.

Being hopeful and positive is nice but we can't end up being delusional in that quest.

 

[Indos]

Have the Japanese relented now?

I dont know, but so far they are still not included until now