JF-17 PFX program

[PakShaheen_79]

They're not the same missile.

SMASH = Supersonic Missile Anti-Ship
P282 = (as per PN CNS in 2020) is a hypersonic ASBM.

How much P282 affected by recent US sanctions on Pakistani and Chinese firms involved in Pakistan's BM program supply chain and development.

 

[Michael]

Its still an unknown at this point.

I used to talk about the history of the WS-21 in this forum before, but I can't find the thread now. I'm not very good at using the search function on this forum. Such as You might try searching for it.

I was unable to find accurate information on the RD-93MA to compare it to the WS-21.
Between them, they are probably more similar to the relationship between the Su-35 and the J-16.
=====================================
If Pakistan wants to continue upgrading the JF-17 family of fighters and take it to the next level, then the WS-21 engine is the only option at this point in time. (It would have been better to use the WS-19 engine, but AECC refused to export the WS-19 engine)
The details of the RD-93MA are not clear to me. But based on our analysis of the Russian situation in question, this engine will not improve the performance of the JF-17 much. It will also have serious supply problems.
If Pakistan wants to use European or American engines, then it will not be able to continue to be called “JF-17”. That would be another story.

 

[That_Guy]

I used to talk about the history of the WS-21 in this forum before, but I can't find the thread now. I'm not very good at using the search function on this forum. Such as You might try searching for it.

I was unable to find accurate information on the RD-93MA to compare it to the WS-21.
Between them, they are probably more similar to the relationship between the Su-35 and the J-16.
=====================================
If Pakistan wants to continue upgrading the JF-17 family of fighters and take it to the next level, then the WS-21 engine is the only option at this point in time. (It would have been better to use the WS-19 engine, but AECC refused to export the WS-19 engine)
The details of the RD-93MA are not clear to me. But based on our analysis of the Russian situation in question, this engine will not improve the performance of the JF-17 much. It will also have serious supply problems.
If Pakistan wants to use European or American engines, then it will not be able to continue to be called “JF-17”. That would be another story.

The biggest issue is cost, as Pakistan simply doesn't have the money to suddenly start introducing and servicing a new engine. Besides, a new engine would means redesigning the fuselage, which means even more money.

I would replace the Russian engine with a Chinese engine too, if I had the money, but the PAF simply doesn't have the funds.

Also, Russia doesn't use the RD-93MA all that much, so they should be able to reliably supply it, especially since it's China placing the orders on behalf of Pakistan.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I'm glad. There are still people here who are willing to seriously confront technical issues.

Regarding the GaO AESA technology, China is also in a trial state at the moment. At the moment In this field, Chinese research organizations have already achieved a lot. Root For GaO chips, SiC is not the best substrate material. According to public information, Chinese scientists have started to use diamond as the substrate material for GaO chips to make chips. (Yes, it is indeed diamond. But, it's artificially cultivated diamonds.)

If you are more interested in China's cutting-edge aerospace technology development, I can recommend a website for you. Chinese Journal of Aeronautics
This is a purely academic site. It has a very large number of academic papers. However, you need to know some Chinese, and translation software doesn't translate these completely accurately.
As these academic papers involve a large number of state secrets, they are made public with varying degrees of “technical treatment”. Therefore, you can read them with peace of mind.

Thanks! I usually rely on Google Scholar for English academic papers, but I’ll also explore Chinese research (though machine translations can be tricky—I use DeepSeek or Grok for this).

I wasn’t aware of China’s progress on Ga₂O₃ (gallium oxide) chips, but your insights suggest China is keeping pace with the U.S. in defense tech.

Regarding diamond substrates, despite their high cost, replacing SiC with diamond in fighter aircraft radars (using GaN or Ga₂O₃ chips) could bring major advantages. Diamond’s thermal conductivity (~2,200 W/mK) is over 4x higher than SiC (~490 W/mK), meaning it dissipates heat far better. This lets radars operate at higher power without overheating. this will result that radars could run longer at peak power, push stronger signals, and last longer—key for next-gen AESA radars in 5th/6th-gen fighters. Plus, diamond loses less energy at mmWave frequencies (like the W-band used for precision targeting), meaning clearer signals and less power waste—perfect for future radars and electronic warfare.

For those unfamiliar with Silicon Carbide (SiC) substrates:
SiC is a semiconductor that’s replacing silicon in advanced electronics because it handles power, heat, and frequency better. Its wide bandgap and high thermal conductivity let radars run hotter and longer without losing performance—even boosting range and endurance.

 

[Scorpio]

If you repeatedly fail maybe you need to analyze both your ambitions and project planning. Not to mention the coffers that get filled everytime such failures happen.

Totally agree, these things come in small steps, to plan something first analysis your capabilities, skill set, resources and expertises in that area...

We are making 4 generation jet which now converted to 4.5 on old school design and mostly of its contribution is from china ..

So first we need release and make realistic milestone... Focus on that .. plus partners more project with friends to improve skill set, and actual expertise

 

[Scorpio]

I think there is a general issue with understanding my point. Part of that may be my explanation, part of that is others not wanting to understand.

Project AZM was ahead of its time. Without having proper capability, both, design, industrial etc. Secondly, the idea that we would build everything local doesn't work. Our economy is super small. Third, we didn't have 200 engineers involved from scratch in a 5th gen project, nor we had 100's of people trained in China to run a JF-17 block III assembly line with top of the line stuff. All that has happened, experienced gained.

Now let's come to PFX. Work on Radars is ongoing jointly with China, weapons and BVR missiles, a joint project with Turkey. Engine options, Chinese and Turkish. Rest is avionics and airframe, airframe that overtime can be produced long term here if a proper manufacturing unit is established. Which, for PFX will be the case. Not sure, why this seems so impossible when you have technology transfer coming in from so many sources.

Lastly, I'll take the current PAF's leaderships word for it vs. the warriors here who aren't paying a dime for it. So let's wait until 2028 and you'll find out.

PFX is possible, can be achieved and hopefully will be achieved... We see it ..

Only thing we have to make its outcome realistic and with small milestone so it can achieved.. incremental way ...

 

[StormBreaker]

I think there is a general issue with understanding my point. Part of that may be my explanation, part of that is others not wanting to understand.

Project AZM was ahead of its time. Without having proper capability, both, design, industrial etc. Secondly, the idea that we would build everything local doesn't work. Our economy is super small. Third, we didn't have 200 engineers involved from scratch in a 5th gen project, nor we had 100's of people trained in China to run a JF-17 block III assembly line with top of the line stuff. All that has happened, experienced gained.

Now let's come to PFX. Work on Radars is ongoing jointly with China, weapons and BVR missiles, a joint project with Turkey. Engine options, Chinese and Turkish. Rest is avionics and airframe, airframe that overtime can be produced long term here if a proper manufacturing unit is established. Which, for PFX will be the case. Not sure, why this seems so impossible when you have technology transfer coming in from so many sources.

Lastly, I'll take the current PAF's leaderships word for it vs. the warriors here who aren't paying a dime for it. So let's wait until 2028 and you'll find out.

Can we expect Thunder to reach MRCA category?

 

[HRK]

Hi,

An excellent news by AMRAAD on youtube---and I don't know how I missed it.

It is about the CM400 w / anti radiation seeker head to be used against SA batteries---used against the S-400 battery in india.

Such a massive development---having a 290 km range anti radiation is a monstrous feat---.

Does the US---israel---UK---france have this range anti radiation missile---????

Watch from 2:35

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So---this version will be called CM400AR

This is an old news known to many observers even I posted about it

Post in thread 'Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion'

May 10, 2025

EW that far inside India while staying within Pak's airspace?...launching CM400AKG(which as far as I'm aware is not anti radiation type)...that doesn't track.

EW would make sense for a proper SEAD/DEAD type of mission...and that would require multiple jets and a coordinated mission...this is the whole reason I'm doubting that lone wolf type of story.

CM-400AKG other then Active radar seeker also have IIR and passive Radar seeker options as well, it could be used for SEAD as well.

• HRK

• 

 

[RajaBaja]

Can we expect Thunder to reach MRCA category?

That's their target. Wait for news to come out from 2026-2028. Way forward is a medium category jet as a standard platform that's built locally, even with some parts / tech coming from China or Turkey for a few years until we master it and produce locally. Engines will for sure come from China / Turkey for next 10 years at least.

This will become a standard platform, and upon which, , future evolution will take place. Our geography won't change so a standard medium category platform can evolve per future requirements.

JF-17 block III also has a good pipeline for sales. So re-investing that revenue back into expanding our local military industrial complex is way forward. We can easily support a few African, Central Russian and Middle Eastern nations with weapon sales and acquire a few billion dollars annually. Huge sales effort is already ongoing.

 

[RajaBaja]

PFX is possible, can be achieved and hopefully will be achieved... We see it ..

Only thing we have to make its outcome realistic and with small milestone so it can achieved.. incremental way ...

Your point is very valid. That's what I've been trying to explain but people don't want to understand it.

There is huge difference between AZM and PFX. AZM was pre JF-17 block III manufacturing and pre KAAN involvement. We thought we could build everything here.

PFX is POST experience from KAAN and JFT block III experience. Alpha exists to build by blocks and learn / correct in between iterations. So its a journey Not trying to build "everything" in Pakistan either. Even an 80-20% (80% in Pakistan) build is a huge success and billions of dollars in savings and additional revenue for Pakistan.

 

[Ali_Baba]

They're not the same missile.

SMASH = Supersonic Missile Anti-Ship
P282 = (as per PN CNS in 2020) is a hypersonic ASBM.

There isn't a consolidated page that contains all this info? Does Quwa have something? Maybe it can be done on this site?

 

[Rebirth]

As military fans, it is our pleasure to moderately analyze and imagine the future development of weapons and equipment.
However, if your analysis and imagination are completely out of touch with reality, then you will look like an idiot. People's ridicule of you is completely reasonable.

What is the significance of developing the JF-17 PFX into a fighter comparable to the F-16XL, whether it is Pakistan or China?

The J-10 series fighters were designed to compete with the F-16 fighter. We already have the J-10, so why should we foolishly develop another backward fighter based on the JF-17?

The reason is that Pakistan need a single engine long range, load carrying fighter jet which many fan boys dont understand, and as PAF is familiar with JFT it next upgrade to medium category is what I posted about as PFX could be radically new bird.

Further Lockheed was not stupid that they completely revamped F-16 in F-16XL

 

[Rebirth]

Why not just buy the J10 then? Do you ever think before you post?

J-10 is not meant for long range mission kindly read posts before responding.

 

[Rebirth]

To put it simply, your idea of how aircraft development works is a little immature.

The 'changes' you're suggesting are so radically different that it becomes a completely new aircraft, it's no longer the JFT.

One you change the engine, the entire fuselage structure has to be re-designed, and everything else too.

It's not economically or logically feasible to invest huge amounts of funds to effectively create another aircraft in the same class as J-10, when you could just buy the J-10 instead. That would be a waste of funds.

The 'PFX' is just going to be an indigenization project with greater focus on subsystems and local manufacturing. If and when a 5th generation program is initiated, then a new fresh design will be decided upon.

Did you ppl even read post before what I posted about?? JFT-XL of built will be as different as F-16XL was from in service F-16s.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

They're not the same missile.

SMASH = Supersonic Missile Anti-Ship
P282 = (as per PN CNS in 2020) is a hypersonic ASBM.

I think SMASH and P282 are same. I could be wrong, but I will give you my reasoning for believing so. As far as PN CNS calling p282 as hypersonic, our military people sometimes use High-supersonic / hypersonic terms loosely. High supersonic is anything above Mach-2. Hypersonic is above mach 5. Just recently, AVM Aurangzeb told in presser during conflict that we have capability to stop hypersonic missiles. I am sure, he wanted to say High-supersonic (like Brahmos is high supersonic.). But anyways, let me tell you other reasons why both SMASH and P282 are same.

We were hearing for quite sometime (many yrs) that PN is building this missile P282 which will be used as main land attack / Ashm. Even heard for its storage facility. Now the name P282, definitely seems to be as an internal project name. Then we saw PN doing a test firing of a new missile it has developed, which they called SMASH. So it appears to me P282 was internal project name and SMASH is its proper name. Interestingly, PN didn't tested this missile from a land based launcher but actually integrated into Zulfiqar class frigate and fired from it. So another important point comes to mind, that if PN is developing a more advance hypersonic missile then why it built a less powerful missile and decided to equip warships first with SMASH missiles. Its not like we have lot of warships OR if every warship can carry 16+ missiles so we decided to have a hi-low mix of missiles. We have limited warships that can carry only 4 to 8 missiles max. It only makes sense to equip warships with your best Antiship missiles. It don't really make sense to first get into development cycle and produce a supersonic ASBM and equip warships with it and then after a small duration (few yrs) replace it with another.

So, it seems to me that P282 is infact SMASH. In addition, most of publications also considers these as same:



Lastly, I will be glad to be wrong on this one. As hypersonic would really be one super lethal arsenal.