JF-17 PFX program

[Pakistanithinktank]

PAF earlier doctrine was defensive.. specially based on Indian... For India mirages are good enough (they over served there life ... Served very well)..

If PAF really want to adopt offensive approach... Specially capacity of longer range above India of borders as well..

Then they definitely need to adopted limited 4.5 gen good bomb trucks .. but cost matters alot for purchase and maintenance..

But mostly bomb truck are dual engine.. which have high running cost ..

If PAF want them in actual for future .. some day .. then there's numbers will not more them 2 sqr around 36 to 40 ..

For that most suitable option will going for J16 (which not available for export) SU35 not suitable as not will available on loan and dependency on Russian.. F15 can't afford and restrictions attached.. Only option left is J15 used or new for now, or get Russian permission for J16s

Pakistan is unlikely to opt for the J-16. As explained before, additional J-10C units are expected, potentially expanding to four squadrons. The J-35 is slated to join the fleet around 2028 and Pakistan will likely contribute to the KAAN project beyond 2030.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

PAF earlier doctrine was defensive.. specially based on Indian... For India mirages are good enough (they over served there life ... Served very well)..

If PAF really want to adopt offensive approach... Specially capacity of longer range above India of borders as well..

Then they definitely need to adopted limited 4.5 gen good bomb trucks .. but cost matters alot for purchase and maintenance..

But mostly bomb truck are dual engine.. which have high running cost ..

If PAF want them in actual for future .. some day .. then there's numbers will not more them 2 sqr around 36 to 40 ..

For that most suitable option will going for J16 (which not available for export) SU35 not suitable as not will available on loan and dependency on Russian.. F15 can't afford and restrictions attached.. Only option left is J15 used or new for now, or get Russian permission for J16s

Defensive is a failed doctrine. If you can't inflict an equal amount of devastating damage on the other side, you leave room for their aggression. And defence is never certain with saturation strikes, especially not for Pakistan's context.

Having adequate firepower to release on the other side is critical, not small-scale isolated hits. We need essentially a conventional version of MAD.

 

[Scorpio]

Defensive is a failed doctrine. If you can't inflict an equal amount of devastating damage on the other side, you leave room for their aggression. And defence is never certain with saturation strikes, especially not for Pakistan's context.

Having adequate firepower to release on the other side is critical, not small-scale isolated hits. We need essentially a conventional version of MAD.

Hopefully after recent conflict with Indian.. .. downing of 6 to 7 india jets will give confidence to PAF on our warfare strategy ... That successful ambushed Indian air force....

May be or post probably PAF .. now move to offensive doctrine for future... If our funds allows .. big question

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Hopefully after recent conflict with Indian.. .. downing of 6 to 7 india jets will give confidence to PAF on our warfare strategy ... That successful ambushed Indian air force....

May be or post probably PAF .. now move to offensive doctrine for future... If our funds allows .. big question

The future of warfare is changing.

It's moving towards networked saturation strikes to overwhelm the enemy. Essentially having modular payloads in cheap swarm attacks that can perform critical functions and saturate their airspace to take over valuable targets like air defence.

Imagine launching hundreds of cruise missile type shaped munitions, some with EW payload, some as decoys, some as strike, some as ISR. Once you take out critical defence targets, you can go ham.

 

[MS Sandhu]

They're not the same missile.

SMASH = Supersonic Missile Anti-Ship
P282 = (as per PN CNS in 2020) is a hypersonic ASBM.

Fatah-2/3= SMASH
Fatah-4 = P282
May be this is where we are going

 

[Scorpio]

The future of warfare is changing.

It's moving towards networked saturation strikes to overwhelm the enemy. Essentially having modular payloads in cheap swarm attacks that can perform critical functions and saturate their airspace to take over valuable targets like air defence.

Imagine launching hundreds of cruise missile type shaped munitions, some with EW payload, some as decoys, some as strike, some as ISR. Once you take out critical defence targets, you can go ham.

Totally agree, new warfare's strategy is changed to multiple warfare .. Pakistan shown successful to the world ...mm causing Indian to face music on 6th and 10th .. which they not forget at least for decade..

PAF is already moved towards that .. applied it successfully.... Now they will definitely improve capacity in this domain... Add more toys in future for sure ...

 

[Corax]

Do you even know the concept of long range birds??

Israel is using F-15s and F-35s, their F-16 needs conformal fuel tanks to extend range which in case of F-16XL never required.

Quote

In summary, the F-16XL had a considerably longer range than the F-16 Block 52, primarily due to its larger internal fuel capacity enabled by its unique airframe design. While the F-16 Block 52 is a highly capable multirole fighter, the F-16XL was specifically designed to excel in range and payload.

Unquote

You have a serious irrational fetish for the XL. No matter how hard you try being delusional, the PFX isn't going to be the JF17 equivalent of the XL. And if you think the PAF intends to conduct deep strike missions over indian territory, then you're even more of an amateur than you appear. Stick to your Wikipedia and Google searches.

 

[PakAl]

That's their target. Wait for news to come out from 2026-2028. Way forward is a medium category jet as a standard platform that's built locally, even with some parts / tech coming from China or Turkey for a few years until we master it and produce locally. Engines will for sure come from China / Turkey for next 10 years at least.

This will become a standard platform, and upon which, , future evolution will take place. Our geography won't change so a standard medium category platform can evolve per future requirements.

JF-17 block III also has a good pipeline for sales. So re-investing that revenue back into expanding our local military industrial complex is way forward. We can easily support a few African, Central Russian and Middle Eastern nations with weapon sales and acquire a few billion dollars annually. Huge sales effort is already ongoing.

@StormBreaker @MastanKhan @Ali_Baba .

Your spot on.
I enquired today regarding PFX, asked if JF17 Block 4s will be coming, and what is PFX, is it upgraded Jf17, answer was paf is planning for a plane larger than JF17s, the reason is JF17 was designed back in early 2000s, and now we are 25 years in future, for paf it was perfect plane, cost effective light weight, but noone knew the future, today China can produce very powerful weapons, radars etc and for that paf needs a bigger plane, Pakistan is also planning to build own weaponary, avionics etc, we also have Turkey building some high tech weaponary.
I also asked why PFX when we can buy more J10CEs, answer was J10CE is Chinese plane, you cannot add own weaponary, radar or buy from Turkey, South Africa.

By the way this is not secret information, paf is clear on its plan to bring pfx dream to reality, the plane design is being worked on and like you mentioned it will be ready in a few years time. We already have around 150 JF17s, PFX will continue Jf17 legacy and we will continue to produce PFX to replace older Jf17s, F7s, Mirages.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

@StormBreaker @MastanKhan @Ali_Baba .

Your spot on.
I enquired today regarding PFX, asked if JF17 Block 4s will be coming, and what is PFX, is it upgraded Jf17, answer was paf is planning for a plane larger than JF17s, the reason is JF17 was designed back in early 2000s, and now we are 25 years in future, for paf it was perfect plane, cost effective light weight, but noone knew the future, today China can produce very powerful weapons, radars etc and for that paf needs a bigger plane, Pakistan is also planning to build own weaponary, avionics etc, we also have Turkey building some high tech weaponary.
I also asked why PFX when we can buy more J10CEs, answer was J10CE is Chinese plane, you cannot add own weaponary, radar or buy from Turkey, South Africa.

By the way this is not secret information, paf is clear on its plan to bring pfx dream to reality, the plane design is being worked on and like you mentioned it will be ready in a few years time. We already have around 150 JF17s, PFX will continue Jf17 legacy and we will continue to produce PFX to replace older Jf17s, F7s, Mirages.

Who did you inquire about this? RIAT airmen?

Also if they want a larger plane, it will just end up being a similar plane to the J-10C. It will need a larger engine to increase size and a fresh airframe design. Essentially going to be 2 platforms similar to J-10.

J-35 covers stealth niche.

 

[hussain0216]

Who did you inquire about this? RIAT airmen?

Also if they want a larger plane, it will just end up being a similar plane to the J-10C. It will need a larger engine to increase size and a fresh airframe design. Essentially going to be 2 platforms similar to J-10.

J-35 covers stealth niche.

Your right, it may be J10 sized

But I think the PAF wants a plane that it can tinker with inside Pakistan, continue on it's development path making it's own radars, avionics and instruments, weapons etc and integrate on its own without any restrictions

Pakistan is lucky enough to have China and Turkey and they are on their own paths and we can get support from them due to our relationship with them

This is a sensible path for Pakistan and regardless of the effort needed and extra costs involved it's essential for the future of Pakistan otherwise we will always be a buyer

 

[StormBreaker]

@StormBreaker @MastanKhan @Ali_Baba .

Your spot on.
I enquired today regarding PFX, asked if JF17 Block 4s will be coming, and what is PFX, is it upgraded Jf17, answer was paf is planning for a plane larger than JF17s, the reason is JF17 was designed back in early 2000s, and now we are 25 years in future, for paf it was perfect plane, cost effective light weight, but noone knew the future, today China can produce very powerful weapons, radars etc and for that paf needs a bigger plane, Pakistan is also planning to build own weaponary, avionics etc, we also have Turkey building some high tech weaponary.
I also asked why PFX when we can buy more J10CEs, answer was J10CE is Chinese plane, you cannot add own weaponary, radar or buy from Turkey, South Africa.

By the way this is not secret information, paf is clear on its plan to bring pfx dream to reality, the plane design is being worked on and like you mentioned it will be ready in a few years time. We already have around 150 JF17s, PFX will continue Jf17 legacy and we will continue to produce PFX to replace older Jf17s, F7s, Mirages.

Medium weight is a good start but 4.5 gen isn’t!

By now, PAF must look at how the AirForce would be after 25 years and they must go all in on 5th gen.

AAMs are getting more and more deadlier and the 4th Gen RCS would basically expose you even more.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Been hearing the PFX is also getting a locally manufactured engine

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Been hearing the PFX is also getting a locally manufactured engine

No truth to it. Far beyond our reach and pockets given we can barely get all the prerequisites done.

People took a poster in NASTP that mentioned engines and started all sorts of ignorant fanboy rumours. They don't know engines come in all shapes and sizes to even power something as miniscule as a cruise missile. These are the engines Pakistan is focusing on, not after-burning turbofans.

 

[sutton9999]

I would like to see the landing gear stretched out, adding three hardpoints under the belly, just like what Gripen NG has done.
Upgrade engine to 9.5 tons shall be able to support MTOW of 15.5 tons, empty weight 8 plus 3+ tons of fuel, making it 11 tons, which leaves 4.5 tons load on 10 hardpoints.

However I am not expecting it, nothing structure will be done.

 

[That_Guy]

This is definitely plausible. I just want to pushback by saying that older (pre-SMASH test) conversations with PN folks gave us the sense that SMASH and P282 were in fact different projects (one hypersonic and the other supersonic).

In fact, we heard about 'SMASH' at the same time as P282, but were unsure if it'd be a ballistic missile (which became the case) or a supersonic-cruising platform (license-built CM-302).


IIRC the sanctions were already bad enough to affect our programs before the recent wave. However, NESCOM got over them. I think the recent wave was targeted at our SLV initiative, which was misconstrued as ICBM work.

I'd like to add, I wouldn't put too much stock into the designation equivalents these publications are makings. They tend to mainly be Ai written slop now a days.