JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Pakistanithinktank]

Mirages are laughing

I hear you loud and clear but only difference is that those Mirages were made by France and JF-17 is made in Pakistan.

JF-17 Block I aircraft entered service around 2007-2010. By the mid-2030s, many will have accumulated significant flight hours.

• Structural fatigue increases maintenance costs.
• Availability rates tend to decline with age.
• Modern replacements may offer lower lifecycle costs than extensive refurbishment.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

I hear you loud and clear but only difference is that those Mirages were made by France and JF-17 is made in Pakistan.

And mirage still very good in low level strike but JF-17 is only good on medium and high-altitude missions, and its main mission is air superiority mission after J-10C/ F-16 rather than true strike jet, and it's not 100% made by Pakistan but more than 40% parts comes from China

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

And mirage still very good in low level strike but JF-17 is only good on medium and high-altitude missions, and its main mission is air superiority mission after J-10C/ F-16 rather than true strike jet, and it's not 100% made by Pakistan but more than 40% parts comes from China

We are discussing block 1, not block 3 and regarding of what percentage of it is made in Pakistan, Block 1 designers did not necessarily leave the same growth margins found in larger fighters like Mirage-2000 and F-16s.

 

[Cipher212]

I hear you loud and clear but only difference is that those Mirages were made by France and JF-17 is made in Pakistan.

JF-17 Block I aircraft entered service around 2007-2010. By the mid-2030s, many will have accumulated significant flight hours.

• Structural fatigue increases maintenance costs.
• Availability rates tend to decline with age.
• Modern replacements may offer lower lifecycle costs than extensive refurbishment.

Off topic but

Bhai AI na use karo please. Like I use it sometimes to summarize long ass posts cause I ain't reading all that but damn you didn't even remove the bullet points

 

[Yasser76]

JF17 winning "orders" is bad news for Pakistan unfortunately as it means the PAF fleet is not being refreshed with younger platforms unfortunately.

Insane right!? PAF have heavily promoted this plane abroad and when we win orders we suffer. Chinese may not help us here as not worth their time and effort. Ultimatley we are left with three options

1) Stop inducting JF-17C and focus on J-10C/J-35
2) Set up another line at Kamra
3) Stop foreign sales

No easy solution to this from what I can make out

 

[Yasser76]

And mirage still very good in low level strike but JF-17 is only good on medium and high-altitude missions, and its main mission is air superiority mission after J-10C/ F-16 rather than true strike jet, and it's not 100% made by Pakistan but more than 40% parts comes from China

Mirage is feeling its age, no two ways about it.

Range is limited, payload limited and it cannot be integrated into modern PAF network. Back in 2019 we required a two seater (for carrying the guidence pod) and a single seater (to carry the missile) just to get off one H-4 missile. So 3 pilots, two planes plus escorts, 4 plane package. A lot of work and resource.

2 F-26s or 2 JF-17Cs could do the same job. Targeting, weapon carriage and self escort

 

[Ali_Baba]

Insane right!? PAF have heavily promoted this plane abroad and when we win orders we suffer. Chinese may not help us here as not worth their time and effort. Ultimatley we are left with three options

1) Stop inducting JF-17C and focus on J-10C/J-35
2) Set up another line at Kamra
3) Stop foreign sales

No easy solution to this from what I can make out

I have a "minority" view on the J10CE on this forum. I think it is better to get the first variant of the J-35AE's(ie Block 1? - though i have not seen that specific designation yet) and get rid of the J10CE entirely imho than to get more in this day and age of needing stealth platforms. The logistical, support and maintenance infrastructure for 20 units, probably means we are very reliant on China supporting these planes versus doing them in Pakistan ( we have heard of Chinese engineers on site helping etc). I can't imagine that there is that much setup in Pakistan for the J10CE compared to the F16/Mirages/JF17s etc.

Go big on the J-35AE instead and spend the time to build the logistical, support and maintence infrastructure for the J-35AE in Pakistan and skip the costs for the J-10CE.

The J10CE are virtually new right now as planes go and won't need as much logistical, support and maintenance infrastructure right now compared to when they get to their first service/overhaul/maintenance interval etc.

"IMHO..". At 20 units, there is no sunk cost barrier to work through on the J10CE. Re-sell them to another J10CE operator etc when the J-35AE's turn up.

At 20 units to date, I do wonder if the PAF is strategically thinking the same. ie buy time to offset the Rafales, and go big on the J-35AE(and wait for KAAN) and get rid of the J10CE, so having a more cost effective fleet of F16s/J-35AE's/JF17s and get rid of the cost of a type entirely ??? My speculation ...

 

[Yasser76]

I have a "minority" view on the J10CE on this forum. I think it is better to get the first variant of the J-35AE's(ie Block 1? - though i have not seen that specific designation yet) and get rid of the J10CE entirely imho than to get more in this day and age of needing stealth platforms. The logistical, support and maintenance infrastructure for 20 units, probably means we are very reliant on China supporting these planes versus doing them in Pakistan ( we have heard of Chinese engineers on site helping etc). I can't imagine that there is that much setup in Pakistan for the J10CE compared to the F16/Mirages/JF17s etc.

Go big on the J-35AE instead and spend the time to build the logistical, support and maintence infrastructure for the J-35AE in Pakistan and skip the costs for the J-10CE.

The J10CE are virtually new right now as planes go and won't need as much logistical, support and maintenance infrastructure right now compared to when they get to their first service/overhaul/maintenance interval etc.

"IMHO..". At 20 units, there is no sunk cost barrier to work through on the J10CE. Re-sell them to another J10CE operator etc when the J-35AE's turn up.

Very very valid points here. Much better to have a platform that is used by PLAAF/PLAN and the Chinese are invested in for the long term. J-10C is very much their 2nd league (or even 3rd league!) platform.

With no follow on orders after the initial 20 there may be a chance PAF is going along the lines you suggested and this could be a small stop gap purchase with the bonus it exposed us to a Chinese network the PL-15 (Before the JF-17s got it) and a very high performance aircraft. Maybe it was always destined to be this stepping stone before J-35? When PM tweeted about J-35, HQ-19 it was not done as a result of the clash a day or two before obviously.

Question is if we go all in with JF-35 and KAAN in future what happens to such a small fleet of 20 J-10Cs that are PAF specific modification?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Very very valid points here. Much better to have a platform that is used by PLAAF/PLAN and the Chinese are invested in for the long term. J-10C is very much their 2nd league (or even 3rd league!) platform.

With no follow on orders after the initial 20 there may be a chance PAF is going along the lines you suggested and this could be a small stop gap purchase with the bonus it exposed us to a Chinese network the PL-15 (Before the JF-17s got it) and a very high performance aircraft. Maybe it was always destined to be this stepping stone before J-35? When PM tweeted about J-35, HQ-19 it was not done as a result of the clash a day or two before obviously.

Question is if we go all in with JF-35 and KAAN in future what happens to such a small fleet of 20 J-10Cs that are PAF specific modification?

We have only ever seen the J10CE's operate the PL-15E and PL-10 in PAF service ever, nothing else(not sure if we have seen them with jammers, but i think they do). I don't think PAF will use them for anything other than the big dhanda that the PL-15E brings. Effectively a single missile plane. We have seen seen air-to-ground missiles, or bombs or anything else on PAF J10CE jets.

I can't imagine beyond datalinks integration and ciphers that there was any level of customisation on the PAF J10CE's imho.

My thought (and we won't know the answer of course ) is that the J10CE is as close to a plain vanilla J10CE export variant an aircraft that PAF has ever bought from China ever for the reason that they don't plan on holding on to them? My speculative thoughts only, of course.

If PAF purchases more J10CE's, then my theory is blown out of the water. If they remain at 20 units, then I think my theory will hold more value. Time will tell.