JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[RajaBaja]

Hi,

All american, swedish, english, russian, chinese 4 & 4.5 gen aircraft have airframes going back to 90's onwards.

Yes, I agree. But there are inherent design issues between these and the JF-17. For example, F-15, F-16, F-18, Draken, Gripen, Mirage 2000, SU-30 / Flankers, all have superior airframe capabilities than the JF-17 airframe and plus, we have its tonnage, speed and range issue.

It's a great platform for being a workhorse for border patrols. No doubt about it and its credible BVR capability it gave Pakistan between early 2000's until May 2025 war with India.

Our threat picture just changed leaps and bounds, so a tier above
JF-17 is needed now.

Mastan Sb - I hope you are well and car sales are well too. I've debated with you on issues in PDF's time. Good to hear from you.

 

[RajaBaja]

India will always have quantity advantage over us because of the economic disparity. An economy of 220 million cannot match 1:1 the economy of 1.4 billion people.

This is what builds a naturally defensive posture, also the difference in land mass, India has a lot of strategic depth to retreat to in the rear which becomes difficult for us to target, while our geography is thin and we are exposed to easy targeting.

I believe the CAS once said we would maintain a ratio of 1:3 aircraft between PAF:IAF. Eventually those older systems you see will be slowly be replaced by modern systems like new JF-17s, or J-10Cs, or in the future J-35s.

I agree with majority of your post. But due to threat picture change, I think the ratio needs to be brought down to 2:1, with all Mirages and F-7's retired. These have essentially become useless facing 5 regiments of S-400 and dozens batteries of medium tier air defenses soon to crowd Indian borders from 2026 end.

2:1 ratio with a stronger 4.5 gen tier is needed to support 170 standardized JF-17 with PL-15 capability and AESA radars. I know our financials are poor, but this one time cost "bitter pill" needs to be swallowed.

 

[Yasser76]

Yes, I agree. But there are inherent design issues between these and the JF-17. For example, F-15, F-16, F-18, Draken, Gripen, Mirage 2000, SU-30 / Flankers, all have superior airframe capabilities than the JF-17 airframe and plus, we have its tonnage, speed and range issue.

It's a great platform for being a workhorse for border patrols. No doubt about it and its credible BVR capability it gave Pakistan between early 2000's until May 2025 war with India.

Our threat picture just changed leaps and bounds, so a tier above
JF-17 is needed now.

Mastan Sb - I hope you are well and car sales are well too. I've debated with you on issues in PDF's time. Good to hear from you.

Think we underestimate what JF-17 did in 2019 and 2025 striking India. This is more then just a plane for "border patrols" Full story not out yet and some say J-10 got all the kills, but who knows.

Striking Indian bases in 2019 and destorying S-400 was no easy feat

 

[RajaBaja]

Think we underestimate what JF-17 did in 2019 and 2025 striking India. This is more then just a plane for "border patrols" Full story not out yet and some say J-10 got all the kills, but who knows.

Striking Indian bases in 2019 and destorying S-400 was no easy feat

You should read my post again with some patience. The platform offered us needed capability with threat requirements. Going forward, the threat assessment may be different and requirements changing also.
Bigger issue isn't JF-17 because it still offers credible BVR options even with less loadout. The major issue is near 200 Mirages and F-7's that need to go and be replace with higher tier jets.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

because they can't fly with 4 PL15's, in fact they can't fly with PL15's at all, due to a smaller radar they can only carry SD10's which are not so good in terms of range only 27.4KM that too when fired from 65000 feet.

which version of Thunder fly at 65,000 feet? It's max service ceiling is around 55,000 feet. What is the source of info about SD-10's range?

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, I agree. But there are inherent design issues between these and the JF-17. For example, F-15, F-16, F-18, Draken, Gripen, Mirage 2000, SU-30 / Flankers, all have superior airframe capabilities than the JF-17 airframe and plus, we have its tonnage, speed and range issue.

It's a great platform for being a workhorse for border patrols. No doubt about it and its credible BVR capability it gave Pakistan between early 2000's until May 2025 war with India.

Our threat picture just changed leaps and bounds, so a tier above
JF-17 is needed now.

Mastan Sb - I hope you are well and car sales are well too. I've debated with you on issues in PDF's time. Good to hear from you.

Hi,

All is well thank you---it has been Big Rig sales for a few years now.

Technology is the greatest equalizer of all times---just like the AK47 was in the 60's---70's---80's.

Let's just look at the aesa radar---JF17 BLK3 has an approx 1000 TR modules GAN based aesa radar---otoh---Rafale will never be able to get that high a number of TR modules because limitations of its nose cone design when it gets GAN---.

You know it has been over 20 years when on this / prev forum I stated that there will be NO MERGES---it will be shoot BVR and scoot for your life---now that it has happened in front of our eyes & that has totally totally changed how the air war will be fought next time---.

It is your ew package against the opponent's ew package---it is your battle management system against the enemy battle management system---it is your bvr missile against the opponent's bvr missile when the aircraft are in the similar generation category---.

Airframe would be least of the issue here---.

the 5th gen aircraft are present with their real weapons in an illusionary world where most cannot see beyond the veil---.

So---till the veil is not penetrated successfully---nothing much can be said of what would happen in the 5th gen realm---. Bottomline---technology will still be the differentiating point---.

 

[MastanKhan]

India will always have quantity advantage over us because of the economic disparity. An economy of 220 million cannot match 1:1 the economy of 1.4 billion people.

This is what builds a naturally defensive posture, also the difference in land mass, India has a lot of strategic depth to retreat to in the rear which becomes difficult for us to target, while our geography is thin and we are exposed to easy targeting.

I believe the CAS once said we would maintain a ratio of 1:3 aircraft between PAF:IAF. Eventually those older systems you see will be slowly be replaced by modern systems like new JF-17s, or J-10Cs, or in the future J-35s.

Hi,

Quality and technology has an advantage of its own---where numbers are just numbers to be obliterated at will---.

PAf could have shown it on May 7th---but out of sheer cowardice---they chickened out and missed writing history---.

Possibly 35 paf aircraft X 4 BVR PL15 ER missiles---140 missiles in all---if all launched and 50% hit ratio achieved of the enemy aircraft resluting in 35-40 aircraft downed---now that would have been the closing chapter of the 4 / 4.5 gen aircrafts history---.

Long long time ago--I have written---your technology much be within 95% of the opponents tech---.

I had changed my assessment along time ago---but never wrote about it.

Now you have to be above and beyond the curve---as far ahead that you can be.

Technology is a force multiplier where the opponent can be taken apart piece by a piece at will and without prejudice---.

Chengiz Khan was true warrior---and the Mongols great warriors---so far ahead of their time---. They understood superior weaponry that could be used on the run better than any of their opponents.

Their "BVR" weapon ( the mongol arrow ) obliterated empires from corner of the world to the other without prejudice---.

And the technique they used was a master piece never seen or heard before---.

Each rider carried about 80 arrows---and each rider had between 2 to three horses---each tied to the other---that when one got tired---the other horse was switched---.

So---whomsoever adapts to superior the superior technology sooner will rule the roost---.

Size don't matter with inferior tech---. technology

 

[Be dazzled]

PAC is gearing up to fulfill Azeri blk 3 order as well.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Yes, I agree. But there are inherent design issues between these and the JF-17. For example, F-15, F-16, F-18, Draken, Gripen, Mirage 2000, SU-30 / Flankers, all have superior airframe capabilities than the JF-17 airframe and plus, we have its tonnage, speed and range issue.

It's a great platform for being a workhorse for border patrols. No doubt about it and its credible BVR capability it gave Pakistan between early 2000's until May 2025 war with India.

Our threat picture just changed leaps and bounds, so a tier above
JF-17 is needed now.

F-16, F-15, F-18........, etc. All these are different weight categories, some are dual engine, all of these are very very expensive, not just upfront cost, but also maintenance, running cost etc. So if PAF would have wanted a heavy and expensive fighter then instead of 160+, we would have had 30 to 40 such aircrafts and huge gaps in our defense posture.

JF-17 was developed as a multirole fighter in 1990s but emphasis was given to the BVR capability right from the start. PAF didn't had any BVR capable aircraft in 90s while india just had received R-77 bvr missiles. So PAF knew that JF-17 will be its main combat platform and its first aircraft with BVR missiles. (We received AMRAAMs for F-16s later after US approval). So, it wasn't just for air patrols but requirement was to have as many capable and BVR enabled aircrafts in air against massive IAF fleet if required. Back then F-16 was actually more of a border patrol fighter but limited Jeffs (the first squadron) was tip of the spear.

Even today, with block III there is no other aircraft in the planet at this cost that gives such air to air combat capability with its AESA, long range BVR (PL15e) and HOBS (PL-10s). There are western platforms that can equip Meteor / aim120D, but those solutions costs significantly higher.

 

[Reichmarshal]

all block 1 jf 17 converted to block 2.
rose mirages still have life left in them as there was talk of converting some into wild weasel role.
rose mirages and pg being fitted with pl10

 

[MastanKhan]

F-16, F-15, F-18........, etc. All these are different weight categories, some are dual engine, all of these are very very expensive, not just upfront cost, but also maintenance, running cost etc. So if PAF would have wanted a heavy and expensive fighter then instead of 160+, we would have had 30 to 40 such aircrafts and huge gaps in our defense posture.

JF-17 was developed as a multirole fighter in 1990s but emphasis was given to the BVR capability right from the start. PAF didn't had any BVR capable aircraft in 90s while india just had received R-77 bvr missiles. So PAF knew that JF-17 will be its main combat platform and its first aircraft with BVR missiles. (We received AMRAAMs for F-16s later after US approval). So, it wasn't just for air patrols but requirement was to have as many capable and BVR enabled aircrafts in air against massive IAF fleet if required. Back then F-16 was actually more of a border patrol fighter but limited Jeffs (the first squadron) was tip of the spear.

Even today, with block III there is no other aircraft in the planet at this cost that gives such air to air combat capability with its AESA, long range BVR (PL15e) and HOBS (PL-10s). There are western platforms that can equip Meteor / aim120D, but those solutions costs significantly higher.

Hi,

JF17 would have cost the same as the F16 if the basic start up wage was around $50 an hour for the assembler.

 

[gamaji]

Hi,

Quality and technology has an advantage of its own---where numbers are just numbers to be obliterated at will---.

PAf could have shown it on May 7th---but out of sheer cowardice---they chickened out and missed writing history---.

Possibly 35 paf aircraft X 4 BVR PL15 ER missiles---140 missiles in all---if all launched and 50% hit ratio achieved of the enemy aircraft resluting in 35-40 aircraft downed---now that would have been the closing chapter of the 4 / 4.5 gen aircrafts history---.

Long long time ago--I have written---your technology much be within 95% of the opponents tech---.

I had changed my assessment along time ago---but never wrote about it.

Now you have to be above and beyond the curve---as far ahead that you can be.

Technology is a force multiplier where the opponent can be taken apart piece by a piece at will and without prejudice---.

Chengiz Khan was true warrior---and the Mongols great warriors---so far ahead of their time---. They understood superior weaponry that could be used on the run better than any of their opponents.

Their "BVR" weapon ( the mongol arrow ) obliterated empires from corner of the world to the other without prejudice---.

And the technique they used was a master piece never seen or heard before---.

Each rider carried about 80 arrows---and each rider had between 2 to three horses---each tied to the other---that when one got tired---the other horse was switched---.

So---whomsoever adapts to superior the superior technology sooner will rule the roost---.

Size don't matter with inferior tech---. technology

Agreed, sir. Had Pakistan downed 30+ enemy planes on 7th, Indians wouldn't have been able to muster the needed courage for sending drones and missiles into Pakistan over the next two days. I think it's ridiculous and coward approach to not deliver the enemy as much powerful a punch as you were capable of delivering just for the sake of keeping the escalation low. Modi did escalate it in any case by several notches by firing surface-to-surface supersonic missiles to hit our major airbases before between 7-10th of May.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed, sir. Had Pakistan downed 30+ enemy planes on 7th, Indians wouldn't have been able to muster the needed courage for sending drones and missiles into Pakistan over the next two days. I think it's ridiculous and coward approach to not deliver the enemy as much powerful a punch as you were capable of delivering just for the sake of keeping the escalation low. Modi did escalate it in any case by several notches by firing surface-to-surface supersonic missiles to hit our major airbases before between 7-10th of May.

Hi,

That was the perfect opportunity to claim being STUPID---sorry we thought we gave the order to a selected aircraft to launch missiles---inciodently---in error it went out to all aircraft to launch missiles---.

 

[Watandar]

Agreed, sir. Had Pakistan downed 30+ enemy planes on 7th, Indians wouldn't have been able to muster the needed courage for sending drones and missiles into Pakistan over the next two days. I think it's ridiculous and coward approach to not deliver the enemy as much powerful a punch as you were capable of delivering just for the sake of keeping the escalation low. Modi did escalate it in any case by several notches by firing surface-to-surface supersonic missiles to hit our major airbases before between 7-10th of May.

I agree. Pakistan let India escape its strategic blunder on May 7th , with loss of just a few Rafales. Pakistani high command was even thinking that was good enough to end hostilities, and was again surprised when India sent drones the next day. After letting Pakistan being hit for 4 days, a weak sauce retaliation was conducted against India. I see no reason for Munira to have elevated himself to Field Marshal based on this poor performance.

If Pakistan had fired at all the Indian aircraft it had a lock on May 7th, and had around 20 to 30 confirmed kills, India would be have been deterred for next 20 years.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Agreed, sir. Had Pakistan downed 30+ enemy planes on 7th, Indians wouldn't have been able to muster the needed courage for sending drones and missiles into Pakistan over the next two days. I think it's ridiculous and coward approach to not deliver the enemy as much powerful a punch as you were capable of delivering just for the sake of keeping the escalation low. Modi did escalate it in any case by several notches by firing surface-to-surface supersonic missiles to hit our major airbases before between 7-10th of May.

Exactly, many officials including PM and also ruling coalition Bilawal said that we had more than 12 planes locked but we had asked airforce to show restrain. So we shot down only 6. First I think, its just political statements but If there's any truth that top military or political leadership really had told our pilots to show restrain then its equal to treachery. How on earth you can hold the hand of your pilots & soldiers back when the enemy is attacking your nation and launching missiles on your country. India had the balls to become judge, jury and executioner, putting up a false blame on Pakistan and launching missiles on a sovereign country but we decided to show "restrain" ?! That's really is treachery if true or if its as it is as they claim.