JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Scorpio]

Only thing we need on JFT is to have better powerful engine ..

Or max twin engine version..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Errm, no, the F15 was never selected for carrier operations!

Good observation you may be right , F14 were used on carrier before and also in Top Gun movie

Very easy to forget F14 And F15 are different planes both quite classic planes


F14-> was replaced with F18
F16-> was replaced with F15

F15 , just had better mission capabilities/Choices . While in Dog fight of course it is the pilot who wins the fighter or Missile, but it did had lot of Maintenance cost


However going back to F16V like Wing for JF17 Thunder , theoretically possible
Twin Engine involves alot of

• structural changes
• Engineering effort
• More money for Development, Testing , Validating Concept

The Delta Wing JF17V is more realistic upgrade, due to JF17 similarity with F16 as a plane, the Wing design would work easily with JF17V, USA has already done the testing of concept that , delta wing works with dimensions of F16 plane.

 

[Gripen9]

F15 was selected for Carrier fleet twin engine allow it to fly from Aircraft carrier

F16 generally was better suited for close home, defensive posture

F18 Got funding because it was Bomb Truck , a role which F16 could not do

The Single Engine F16 would not do great over sea , due to risk of Engine failure at sea , the F15 can still fly on 1 engine and survive at sea, which F16 could do limited missions oversea but F15 was preferred for long term need


JF17 Thunder , V-SHAPE wing would still work for Pakistan because our focus is more "Home base" air defence. The plane would have more manoeuvrability
May be even enhanced ability to carry more missiles

However one can also debate that the V-Shape is already present in J10C , so just go with more purchases of J10C

F-14 not F-15 was the USN Carrier fleet defense fighter.

F-18 was an evolution of F-17 Cobra. Navy operations require twin engine aircraft and F-18 is a multi role fighter that has now replaced F-14, A6, EA-6B, A7.

 

[Corax]

Good observation you may be right , F14 were used on carrier before and also in Top Gun movie

Very easy to forget F14 And F15 are different planes both quite classic planes


F14-> was replaced with F18
F16-> was replaced with F15

F15 , just had better mission capabilities/Choices . While in Dog fight of course it is the pilot who wins the fighter or Missile, but it did had lot of Maintenance cost


However going back to F16V like Wing for JF17 Thunder , theoretically possible
Twin Engine involves alot of

• structural changes
• Engineering effort
• More money for Development, Testing , Validating Concept

The Delta Wing JF17V is more realistic upgrade, due to JF17 similarity with F16 as a plane, the Wing design would work easily with JF17V, USA has already done the testing of concept that , delta wing works with dimensions of F16 plane.

I don't know how old you are, but there's so many things wrong with this the F16 was not replaced by the F15 for one!

 

[Michael]

Nice! Any ideas about the # of block III produced until now?

I don't know the production situation of JF-17B3. Has it stopped production? This needs to be confirmed by Pakistani friends.
If it has really stopped production, I guess the possible reason is related to one of my previous analysis.

JF-17B3 is in a rather embarrassing situation!

The avionics technology of the JF-17B3 is basically at the same generation level as that of the J-10C. Many of the internal components between them are exactly the same, but there are differences in the scale of the components. However, the engine of the JF-17B3 limits the working ability of these avionics. These avionics have to be in low-power operation mode for a long time and cannot reach the best state.
This is a bit like the CPU in a personal computer. The same generation of i7 CPU is divided into desktop version and notebook version.

If the JF-17B3 replaces the RD-93 engine with the WS-21 engine, the problem of insufficient power supply can be solved. But it will face another problem of "cost".

The JF-17B3 now costs more than $30 million. If the RD-93 engine is replaced with the WS-21 engine, its cost will exceed $40 million.
The price of the J-10CE is $40-60 million (different configurations, different prices. The PAF currently uses the top-of-the-line version of the J-10CE, which is estimated to cost about $54 million per unit.).

In this case, what would you choose?

 

[RafaleSlayer]

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that shalong is huge, no wonder Vikrant ijjat bacha kay farar ho gaya.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

Colors of shaheen foundation

nice design but the artwork on the Dragon seems to be more pertinent in light of recent events

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I don't know the production situation of JF-17B3. Has it stopped production? This needs to be confirmed by Pakistani friends.
If it has really stopped production, I guess the possible reason is related to one of my previous analysis.

JF-17B3 is in a rather embarrassing situation!

The avionics technology of the JF-17B3 is basically at the same generation level as that of the J-10C. Many of the internal components between them are exactly the same, but there are differences in the scale of the components. However, the engine of the JF-17B3 limits the working ability of these avionics. These avionics have to be in low-power operation mode for a long time and cannot reach the best state.
This is a bit like the CPU in a personal computer. The same generation of i7 CPU is divided into desktop version and notebook version.

If the JF-17B3 replaces the RD-93 engine with the WS-21 engine, the problem of insufficient power supply can be solved. But it will face another problem of "cost".

The JF-17B3 now costs more than $30 million. If the RD-93 engine is replaced with the WS-21 engine, its cost will exceed $40 million.
The price of the J-10CE is $40-60 million (different configurations, different prices. The PAF currently uses the top-of-the-line version of the J-10CE, which is estimated to cost about $54 million per unit.).

In this case, what would you choose?

how much improve power does WS-21 have over RD-93? and another question are they of the same dimensions and easily will be replaceable or it will need airframe changes?

 

[Michael]

how much improve power does WS-21 have over RD-93? and another question are they of the same dimensions and easily will be replaceable or it will need airframe changes?

RD-93 engine and WS-21 engine. They have a common ancestor, RD-33.

 

[RajaBaja]

I don't know the production situation of JF-17B3. Has it stopped production? This needs to be confirmed by Pakistani friends.
If it has really stopped production, I guess the possible reason is related to one of my previous analysis.

JF-17B3 is in a rather embarrassing situation!

The avionics technology of the JF-17B3 is basically at the same generation level as that of the J-10C. Many of the internal components between them are exactly the same, but there are differences in the scale of the components. However, the engine of the JF-17B3 limits the working ability of these avionics. These avionics have to be in low-power operation mode for a long time and cannot reach the best state.
This is a bit like the CPU in a personal computer. The same generation of i7 CPU is divided into desktop version and notebook version.

If the JF-17B3 replaces the RD-93 engine with the WS-21 engine, the problem of insufficient power supply can be solved. But it will face another problem of "cost".

The JF-17B3 now costs more than $30 million. If the RD-93 engine is replaced with the WS-21 engine, its cost will exceed $40 million.
The price of the J-10CE is $40-60 million (different configurations, different prices. The PAF currently uses the top-of-the-line version of the J-10CE, which is estimated to cost about $54 million per unit.).

In this case, what would you choose?

This is where my old analysis come in handy. Here it is again:
Only an AESA radar upgrade to JF-17 block I and II for PL-15 integration. No costly engine upgrade. Use that money for J-10C.

- J-10C acquisition and Mirage and F-7 retirement.
- Convert the JF-17 assembly line to PFX. PFX will have a heavier engine.

JF-17 in 170-180 numbers with block III Radar configuration with PL-15 integrated will beautifully serve the daily capable workhorse routine of the PAF for the next ten years. While we build a strong air force with J-10C's+the future with J-35 / PFX /KAAN.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

RD-93 engine and WS-21 engine. They have a common ancestor, RD-33.

so that means we can easily without doing any change to airframe can replace them? what about both thrust power? how much improvement does ws-21 bring to rd-33?

 

[Ali_Baba]

I don't know the production situation of JF-17B3. Has it stopped production? This needs to be confirmed by Pakistani friends.
If it has really stopped production, I guess the possible reason is related to one of my previous analysis.

JF-17B3 is in a rather embarrassing situation!

The avionics technology of the JF-17B3 is basically at the same generation level as that of the J-10C. Many of the internal components between them are exactly the same, but there are differences in the scale of the components. However, the engine of the JF-17B3 limits the working ability of these avionics. These avionics have to be in low-power operation mode for a long time and cannot reach the best state.
This is a bit like the CPU in a personal computer. The same generation of i7 CPU is divided into desktop version and notebook version.

If the JF-17B3 replaces the RD-93 engine with the WS-21 engine, the problem of insufficient power supply can be solved. But it will face another problem of "cost".

The JF-17B3 now costs more than $30 million. If the RD-93 engine is replaced with the WS-21 engine, its cost will exceed $40 million.
The price of the J-10CE is $40-60 million (different configurations, different prices. The PAF currently uses the top-of-the-line version of the J-10CE, which is estimated to cost about $54 million per unit.).

In this case, what would you choose?

JF17B3 fulfils a different role and purpose within the PAF, that is greater than just the cost/capability of the platform relative to other platforms like the J10CE.

JF17B3 ( PFX ) will continue as it gives Pakistan the ability to integrate its own custom weapons, and weapons from other vendors to the JF17B3 platform, which is not possible with the J10CE.

The integration of Turkish missiles and weapons to the JF17B3 as part of the sale to Azerbaijan shows the value that the platform brings. PAF will not want to lose that capability as it will want to develop more of its own munitions specific to the India-Pakistan scenario.

The JF17B3 manufacturing line is busy in building the orders for the Azerbaijan air force right now. Once that is completed, PAF orders may come after this and it may also be for the similar version that Azerbaijan has ordered as PAF will get the flexibility of Turkish munitions and SOW as well, in addition to Chinese and Pakistani munitions.

 

[Michael]

so that means we can easily without doing any change to airframe can replace them? what about both thrust power? how much improvement does ws-21 bring to rd-33?

The technical parameters of WS-21 have not been announced yet and are still confidential. Judging from its performance on the J-35 series fighters, it should have surpassed the RD-93 engine by a lot.

In theory, there is no technical obstacle for the JF-17 series fighters to use the WS-21 engine. The working principle of the core engine of the WS-21 engine is exactly the same as that of the RD-93 engine, but some materials and production processes of the core engine are different. The technology of the engine accessory casing is derived from the WS-19 engine, which is somewhat different from the RD-93 engine.
That is, if the JF-17 switches to the WS-21 engine, the fuselage will need to be modified to a certain extent, but the changes will not be large.

Since Pakistan does not have a relevant test environment, if the JF-17 is to switch to the WS-21 engine, the relevant testing work can only be carried out at CAC. But we have not obtained any relevant information at present.

Pakistan has already purchased one WS-21 engine. But I am not sure what it is actually used for in Pakistan at the moment.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

JF17B3 fulfils a different role and purpose within the PAF, that is greater than just the cost/capability of the platform relative to other platforms like the J10CE.

JF17B3 ( PFX ) will continue as it gives Pakistan the ability to integrate its own custom weapons, and weapons from other vendors to the JF17B3 platform, which is not possible with the J10CE.

The integration of Turkish missiles and weapons to the JF17B3 as part of the sale to Azerbaijan shows the value that the platform brings. PAF will not want to lose that capability as it will want to develop more of its own munitions specific to the India-Pakistan scenario.

The JF17B3 manufacturing line is busy in building the orders for the Azerbaijan air force right now. Once that is completed, PAF orders may come after this and it may also be for the similar version that Azerbaijan has ordered as PAF will get the flexibility of Turkish munitions and SOW as well, in addition to Chinese and Pakistani munitions.

After abandoning the AZM fighter project, Pakistan’s working on the PFX now. Honestly, it looks like it’s still pretty early in development, so I wouldn’t expect it to be ready before 2030. Meanwhile, the Air Force is exploring ways to cover the gap and phase out older jets. That’s probably why they’re eyeing more F-16s. We’ve already got the infrastructure set up for them, so if we can snag a good deal, it’d be a cost-effective way to boost the fleet.

 

[RajaBaja]

After abandoning the AZM fighter project, Pakistan’s working on the PFX now. Honestly, it looks like it’s still pretty early in development, so I wouldn’t expect it to be ready before 2030. Meanwhile, the Air Force is exploring ways to cover the gap and phase out older jets. That’s probably why they’re eyeing more F-16s. We’ve already got the infrastructure set up for them, so if we can snag a good deal, it’d be a cost-effective way to boost the fleet.

We've discussed the F-16 issue to death in the F-16 thread today. Kindly stay on topic, its a JF-17 thread.

Pakistan needs to urgently upgrade its JF-17 block I and II's with JF-17 block III's radars to integrate PL-15 into it. The rest of the featured upgrade to block III can happen slowly as they are more extensive.