JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Toxic]

I dont think this means a ton, F-16s still played a vital role in CAP's etc, even if they werent a part of the offensive strike pkg. Though, if they were V's i bet you they would have been.

You are ignoring a elephant in the room I fear, Incompetable datalinks.

 

[Ak01]

You are ignoring a elephant in the room I fear, Incompetable datalinks.

PAF TDLs work in a way where everything comms together via intermediary stations. its why j-10s can talk to erieyes who can talk to f16s etc etc etc. all shared pictures.

we will do a deep dive on this on the @Quwa podcast soon and explain things

 

[RafaleSlayer]

US Restrictions .....
Limited BRV range .....
No link17 for part of centralized eco system (only link 16 , which can only talk to saab)....

There are no restrictions in defensive use and once the war breaks out no restrictions on offensive use either. Pakistan acquired them basically for use against India, if there were any restriction on use against India why would we even acquire them?

 

[Taimoor]

I dont think this means a ton, F-16s still played a vital role in CAP's etc, even if they werent a part of the offensive strike pkg. Though, if they were V's i bet you they would have been.

Realistically speaking, if we have Vs, that means, that best available weapons you might get from yanks are aim120Ds and JDAMs. Both does not surpass the capabilities we already posses. Top of that, zero chance to integrate our home grown weapons which are VITAL to our strike options. We used BREK heavily against india, and it was JFs which carried that load. Then you think about maritime defence, would Vs carry anything that surpass CM400?

Spending limited resources on something which doesn't surpass the capabilities which we already posses is not viable, rather we add more of that cutting edge, which we already possess, the J10s and Blk3s

 

[Taimoor]

US Restrictions .....
Limited BRV range .....
No link17 for part of centralized eco system (only link 16 , which can only talk to saab)....

Plus the most annoying political garbage that comes along from US side. People have different threshold, I have zero appetite for it.

 

[Scorpio]

There are no restrictions in defensive use and once the war breaks out no restrictions on offensive use either. Pakistan acquired them basically for use against India, if there were any restriction on use against India why would we even acquire them?

They can be use in defense scenario against India only .. in defensive game as well BRV range better....

 

[Ak01]

Realistically speaking, if we have Vs, that means, that best available weapons you might get from yanks are aim120Ds and JDAMs. Both does not surpass the capabilities we already posses. Top of that, zero chance to integrate our home grown weapons which are VITAL to our strike options. We used BREK heavily against india, and it was JFs which carried that load. Then you think about maritime defence, would Vs carry anything that surpass CM400?

Spending limited resources on something which doesn't surpass the capabilities which we already posses is not viable, rather we add more of that cutting edge, which we already possess, the J10s and Blk3s

you really, really need to remember range means nothing, beyond that you dont know anything about the capabilities of amraams.

just a reminder, aim120d holds the world record for longest range a2a kill. Not meteor, not PL-15 etc, because range numbers really dont mean a ton.

IREK/BREK dont really need any deep integration. Philippines, Ukrainians, Turks etc use ipad controlled stores dispensors, we could do the same.

I think using CM400 as your standard is flawed because we likely only have low double digits of these, otherwise we'd have seen widespread use.

Again, claiming that they dont "surpass the capabilities" is a bit baseless, you dont know, nor do i really what the viper brings to the fight, but we can make some great inferences.

A really easy one is the datasheet for that JF-17 AESA they released. 1m sar resolution.

the APG-68v9- a MSA that traces its origins to the 1980's has a SAR resolution of 0.6m.

This comparison alone shows the limitations of chinese hardware in terms of radars but also software.

Likely far better processing capabilities of the 68s backend, better INS etc etc other crap. All in all, these range numbers are literally meaningless, you can build a crappy huge radar and pump tons of power through and achieve huge range numbers, but in terms of capabilities, means nowt.

Clearly, range doesnt mean much in terms of the actual hardware/software/backend and the overall capabilities of the radar.

 

[Toxic]

you really, really need to remember range means nothing, beyond that you dont know anything about the capabilities of amraams.

just a reminder, aim120d holds the world record for longest range a2a kill. Not meteor, not PL-15 etc, because range numbers really dont mean a ton.

IREK/BREK dont really need any deep integration. Philippines, Ukrainians, Turks etc use ipad controlled stores dispensors, we could do the same.

I think using CM400 as your standard is flawed because we likely only have low double digits of these, otherwise we'd have seen widespread use.

Again, claiming that they dont "surpass the capabilities" is a bit baseless, you dont know, nor do i really what the viper brings to the fight, but we can make some great inferences.

A really easy one is the datasheet for that JF-17 AESA they released. 1m sar resolution.

the APG-68v9- a MSA that traces its origins to the 1980's has a SAR resolution of 0.6m.

This comparison alone shows the limitations of chinese hardware in terms of radars but also software.

Likely far better processing capabilities of the 68s backend, better INS etc etc other crap. All in all, these range numbers are literally meaningless, you can build a crappy huge radar and pump tons of power through and achieve huge range numbers, but in terms of capabilities, means nowt.

Clearly, range doesnt mean much in terms of the actual hardware/software/backend and the overall capabilities of the radar.

The 120D hasn't been used in combat so how did it exactly achieve the longest air to air kill?

 

[Oscar]

The 120D hasn't been used in combat so how did it exactly achieve the longest air to air kill?

The AIM-120D’s longest air-to-air kill was in a 2021 USAF test, not in combat but it hit a drone at extreme range (120-160km) during a training exercise.

No data if it is a maneuvering target or not

 

[Ak01]

The AIM-120D’s longest air-to-air kill was in a 2021 USAF test, not in combat but it hit a drone at extreme range (120-160km) during a training exercise.

No data if it is a maneuvering target or not

the number was never officially released, but its effecctively a pl15 type missile. dual pulse, 2wy datalink etc etc.

 

[Oscar]

the number was never officially released, but its effecctively a pl15 type missile. dual pulse, 2wy datalink etc etc.

Yep - which is why neither camp “I cannot stand American F-16s” or “east or west F-16 is the best” may be what’s truly best for PAF.

All I will say is that it would be myopic and wasteful to neglect a system with 45 year old roots in the PAF and airframes that have good life in them along with decent spares left as well.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Yep - which is why neither camp “I cannot stand American F-16s” or “east or west F-16 is the best” may be what’s truly best for PAF.

All I will say is that it would be myopic and wasteful to neglect a system with 45 year old roots in the PAF and airframes that have good life in them along with decent spares left as well.

The issue is the political uncertainty in support attached to it. Now I can't guarantee that China won't do the same, but if in war you're prevented from receiving spare parts or maintenance support, or you're not given the adequate munitions to maximise its capabilites, then how valuable is it really? Especially if you won't get consistent upgrades as they roll out.

As we see, despite the huge investment by the OEM into F-16s, how much is that actually accessible to Pakistan consistently and without restrictions?

@arslank01

 

[Oscar]

l

The issue is the political uncertainty in support attached to it. Now I can't guarantee that China won't do the same, but if in war you're prevented from receiving spare parts or maintenance support, or you're not given the adequate munitions to maximise its capabilites, then how valuable is it really? Especially if you won't get consistent upgrades as they roll out.

As we see, despite the huge investment by the OEM into F-16s, how much is that actually accessible to Pakistan consistently and without restrictions?

@arslank01

Its a question of relationships and fighting with camps within pentagon and so on.

The first F-16s Pakistan got had equipment even USAF ones did not have.But then PAF had to fighter over DRFM for the Block-52s.
There are pro-India anti-china extremes in Pentagon as there are moderate pro-Pakistan relationship ones who know how close Pakistan does access control.

Block-52 access to this day is controlled by LM liason.

 

[iron shrapnel]

I don't know the production situation of JF-17B3. Has it stopped production? This needs to be confirmed by Pakistani friends.
If it has really stopped production, I guess the possible reason is related to one of my previous analysis.

JF-17B3 is in a rather embarrassing situation!

The avionics technology of the JF-17B3 is basically at the same generation level as that of the J-10C. Many of the internal components between them are exactly the same, but there are differences in the scale of the components. However, the engine of the JF-17B3 limits the working ability of these avionics. These avionics have to be in low-power operation mode for a long time and cannot reach the best state.
This is a bit like the CPU in a personal computer. The same generation of i7 CPU is divided into desktop version and notebook version.

If the JF-17B3 replaces the RD-93 engine with the WS-21 engine, the problem of insufficient power supply can be solved. But it will face another problem of "cost".

The JF-17B3 now costs more than $30 million. If the RD-93 engine is replaced with the WS-21 engine, its cost will exceed $40 million.
The price of the J-10CE is $40-60 million (different configurations, different prices. The PAF currently uses the top-of-the-line version of the J-10CE, which is estimated to cost about $54 million per unit.).

In this case, what would you choose?

how have you assumed the ws-21 will cost 10 million usd ?

 

[frontline360news]

how have you assumed the ws-21 will cost 10 million usd ?

Between 3 to 5 millions