JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[frontline360news]

Rumors are that Indonesia will send their pilots for training in Pakistan. Also, Pakistan has pitched Jf-17B3 to Indonesia.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

The AIM-120D’s longest air-to-air kill was in a 2021 USAF test, not in combat but it hit a drone at extreme range (120-160km) during a training exercise.

No data if it is a maneuvering target or not

also important is the speed of the target and whether it was coming head on or running away.

 

[Taimoor]

you really, really need to remember range means nothing, beyond that you dont know anything about the capabilities of amraams.

just a reminder, aim120d holds the world record for longest range a2a kill. Not meteor, not PL-15 etc, because range numbers really dont mean a ton.

IREK/BREK dont really need any deep integration. Philippines, Ukrainians, Turks etc use ipad controlled stores dispensors, we could do the same.

I think using CM400 as your standard is flawed because we likely only have low double digits of these, otherwise we'd have seen widespread use.

Again, claiming that they dont "surpass the capabilities" is a bit baseless, you dont know, nor do i really what the viper brings to the fight, but we can make some great inferences.

A really easy one is the datasheet for that JF-17 AESA they released. 1m sar resolution.

the APG-68v9- a MSA that traces its origins to the 1980's has a SAR resolution of 0.6m.

This comparison alone shows the limitations of chinese hardware in terms of radars but also software.

Likely far better processing capabilities of the 68s backend, better INS etc etc other crap. All in all, these range numbers are literally meaningless, you can build a crappy huge radar and pump tons of power through and achieve huge range numbers, but in terms of capabilities, means nowt.

Clearly, range doesnt mean much in terms of the actual hardware/software/backend and the overall capabilities of the radar.

This is the second time you mentioned 120d holding the longest a2a kill. Shooting a BQM-167 drone over a undiscovered distance does not class as longest kill. Its rather silly. Its a flipping drone for crying out loud. We just squashed with utter disdain 4*4.5 gen rafales loaded with the top of the of the line spectra EW, and god knows what other Isreali gadgets, at extreme ranges with PL15.

I am not claiming to be an expert on aim120 series, neither you are. Many years ago, I had this discussion about 120cs Vs Sd10s, with someone, let's say, the person who knows. Answer was something along these lines that Sd10s are the real deal.

Show me one occasion where we have integrated our weapons to our fleet of F16s. None of our F16s is known to carry IREK/BREK, RA'AD, Taimoor, H4... Perhaps one exception when in 80s they were modified to carry our rudimentary bomb.

With regards to CM400, you are working on assumption, I am talking about capability. A capability which is now battle tested. So if Vs can carry something better then CM400, please discuss, let alone yanks providing such capability.

I hear your argument about datasheets, question is do you really believe them? Would anyone reveal the real capabilities. All we can do is comment on known facts, which in our case is that J10/pl15 combo is lethal, we hit the best known AD system the S400 with our JF carry Chinese CM400, and we hit their runways with pin point accuracy at impressive standoff ranges with our homegrown BREK carried by JFs. None of American product is known to achieve this level of performance agianst the top tier adversary.

I am not against Vs if say they come with aim260s. But having done some research, it seems f16 is not in the planned list of aircrafts that will be carrying it. Rather QF16s are being used as targeting drones. So from scalability point of view, if you get Vs, their sealing will be 120ds. India already operates meteors and will increase the number of rafales. You ain't going to get assured first look, first shoot capability agaisnt those 4.5 gens machines operting across the border with Vs. What you already have is j10/pl15 combo, with the option of scaling up to pl17, if needed.

 

[gamaji]

I agree with some parts of your post and I disagree with some. For some factual questions you asked, I'll try to answer.

Before I start, DO NOTE, that unlike China, Pakistan obviously doesn't have that industrial base, neither does India or other nations. So you can't compare the two. Secondly, the defense industry so far, comes under direct military control so lots of things are state owned. GIDS, NASTP, etc, are examples.

1: Explosive manufacturing: we have units that develop all kinds of explosives under TOT from various European, Eastern European and obviously from China.

2: The "steel mill" concept for commercial use is different and our two mills were closed down years ago. For metallurgy / weapons related steel mills, some units exist under the state owned institutes. That's how we assemble Tank and other various weapon's grade metals. If we can produce that, we can for sure produce anything else with time.
However, COMPOSITES for airframe was different for us because we had never built a fighter before. That's a process in development. Hopefully, in PFX in some years, we'll have a bigger manufacturing role wrt the airframe / metallurgy, composite manufacturing.

3: Rubber tires: You are correct. None commercial. We import from China / Japan / Europe. But here is the catch, if import one's fill our needs, and they are cheaper to get from overseas vs. building internally, why not get imported one's? This is a business case example. But I agree, we should have these industries localized.

Lastly, a reminder, Pakistan's defense needs were rather limited. They've expanded exponentially since 2019 Indian attacks. And now even more so in 2025. We were in the Western block and somehow thought we'd have access to the top western weapons. That idea shifted badly around late 90's, early 2000's, and now we are building a local defense industry. Pakistan army I think 75% gets its things built locally. Air force and Navy are examples of foreign dependence still. By 2035, at least the air force would've moved near 60% indigenous also. Even the US manufacturing has foreign dependency on its F-35 project. So nothing wrong if we'll have 20-30% foreign dependency just because we can't match China or USA's advance research. So we'll buy what their advance defense industries sell as the "latest tech".

In fact, you guys are not right in that respect. Please note the following producers (not just importers) of tires/tyres in Pakistan.

Ghandhara Tyre & Rubber Co. Ltd (GTR) Tyre
TRAKTION TYRE & RUBBER MANUFACTURING COMPANY PAKISTAN (PRIVATE) LIMITED
Service Long March Tyres Pvt Ltd
General Tyres
Crown Tyres Limited

 

[Oscar]

also important is the speed of the target and whether it was coming head on or running away.

You don’t know what you don’t know.
I would not underestimate nor overestimate the AIM-120D.
Unlike the Meteor it is not that overhyped but is also no longer the premier system with AIM-260 is the process of hitting operational units.

But the neither is PL-15 premier anymore.
However, that term “premier” is important to understand in context as well.

The missile isn’t the only part of a system - it was a F-15 combo that made it happen because it can see that far to a small target drone and kill it - that was key.

The F-16 cannot maximize to that performance just as Rafale Meteor combo may not be as effective as EF-2000 meteor or even F-15 meteor.

I take an analogy to a certain types of Pakistanis that will get a Suzuki Mehran (may Allah bless their souls and halal earnings to be able to get a car) - then proceed to install a massive sound system, low profile tired and in one case a fellow put a nitrous oxide tank in it.

Just not the best use of those systems.

 

[Michael]

They maybe trying it with JF17 themselves?

Unfortunately, Pakistan does not have such capabilities and conditions at present.

Any other Engine option then WS-21, with better power then RD-93 but cost effective option ?

Once upon a time, the WS-13 was cheaper than the RD-93, but the PAF could not accept it. The performance of the WS-13 was really not good.
Now, the performance of the WS-21 has been greatly improved, but the price is also very expensive.

how have you assumed the ws-21 will cost 10 million usd ?

Earlier, Pakistan purchased a WS-21 engine. The price was RMB 100 million.
After the engine was replaced, the power generation capacity was greatly improved, and the relevant avionics system will be adjusted synchronously.
The cost increase of 10 million US dollars is a reasonable estimate.

 

[Afif]

the number was never officially released, but its effecctively a pl15 type missile. dual pulse, 2wy datalink etc etc.

Two way data link, yes. But not dual pulse.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Unfortunately, Pakistan does not have such capabilities and conditions at present.

Once upon a time, the WS-13 was cheaper than the RD-93, but the PAF could not accept it. The performance of the WS-13 was really not good.
Now, the performance of the WS-21 has been greatly improved, but the price is also very expensive.

Earlier, Pakistan purchased a WS-21 engine. The price was RMB 100 million.
After the engine was replaced, the power generation capacity was greatly improved, and the relevant avionics system will be adjusted synchronously.
The cost increase of 10 million US dollars is a reasonable estimate.

Then they maybe studying the WS-21 for their own indegenous engine production i guess?

 

[StormBreaker]

You don’t know what you don’t know.
I would not underestimate nor overestimate the AIM-120D.
Unlike the Meteor it is not that overhyped but is also no longer the premier system with AIM-260 is the process of hitting operational units.

But the neither is PL-15 premier anymore.
However, that term “premier” is important to understand in context as well.

The missile isn’t the only part of a system - it was a F-15 combo that made it happen because it can see that far to a small target drone and kill it - that was key.

The F-16 cannot maximize to that performance just as Rafale Meteor combo may not be as effective as EF-2000 meteor or even F-15 meteor.

I take an analogy to a certain types of Pakistanis that will get a Suzuki Mehran (may Allah bless their souls and halal earnings to be able to get a car) - then proceed to install a massive sound system, low profile tired and in one case a fellow put a nitrous oxide tank in it.

Just not the best use of those systems.

That ugly bass with chapri songs. Ughhh.

I play heavy metal on my stock civic speakers. Far better than those stupid boxes.

 

[StormBreaker]

Unfortunately, Pakistan does not have such capabilities and conditions at present.

Once upon a time, the WS-13 was cheaper than the RD-93, but the PAF could not accept it. The performance of the WS-13 was really not good.
Now, the performance of the WS-21 has been greatly improved, but the price is also very expensive.

Earlier, Pakistan purchased a WS-21 engine. The price was RMB 100 million.
After the engine was replaced, the power generation capacity was greatly improved, and the relevant avionics system will be adjusted synchronously.
The cost increase of 10 million US dollars is a reasonable estimate.

This does explain the Project PFXs goal to make as manufacture home grown avionics in order to cut costs.

I am assuming we might slow down of B3 production and to substitute, more J-10Cs are gonna be inducted. They provide more value for money honestly.

 

[StormBreaker]

Two way data link, yes. But not dual pulse.

What sort of cooperation could really take place between PAF and BAF?

 

[Michael]

Then they maybe studying the WS-21 for their own indegenous engine production i guess?

This is not something that Pakistan can do at the moment.

Pakistan has had RD-93 engines for a long time. If PAC has the capability and desire, they should at least be able to fully clone the RD-93 engine at this point. I.e. 100% indigenous manufacturing of RD-93 engines.

IMO. the Pakistani purchase of the WS-21 engine is supposed to be for engine maintenance training instruction work in preparation for the arrival of the FC-31/J-35.

This does explain the Project PFXs goal to make as manufacture home grown avionics in order to cut costs.

I won't analyze the “PFX program” too much until it's fully defined.

But it is 100% certain that “cost reduction” is certainly not a core element of the program.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

This is not something that Pakistan can do at the moment.

Pakistan has had RD-93 engines for a long time. If PAC has the capability and desire, they should at least be able to fully clone the RD-93 engine at this point. I.e. 100% indigenous manufacturing of RD-93 engines.

IMO. the Pakistani purchase of the WS-21 engine is supposed to be for engine maintenance training instruction work in preparation for the arrival of the FC-31/J-35.

I won't analyze the “PFX program” too much until it's fully defined.

But it is 100% certain that “cost reduction” is certainly not a core element of the program.

This makes sense. Thank you

 

[RajaBaja]

In fact, you guys are not right in that respect. Please note the following producers (not just importers) of tires/tyres in Pakistan.

Ghandhara Tyre & Rubber Co. Ltd (GTR) Tyre
TRAKTION TYRE & RUBBER MANUFACTURING COMPANY PAKISTAN (PRIVATE) LIMITED
Service Long March Tyres Pvt Ltd
General Tyres
Crown Tyres Limited

Thank you. You are right to some degree. I've watched Gandhara tyre stocks for a while (GTYRE). My answer was in line with mil-spec tyres and rubber related works. That's still imported from China. But yes, we do have a big industry. Hopefully they'll start to mass produce to a degree we won't have to import.

 

[Fatman17]

Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Poised for Central Asian Breakthrough as Uzbekistan Nears Fighter Jet Deal ??​

According to authoritative regional defence sources, Tashkent is nearing a final decision to acquire the JF-17, co-developed by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAIG), as part of a broader realignment towards cost-effective yet potent defence technologies​