Jinnah Class Frigate | Updates & Discussion

[Starlord]

Are all Type 54's delivered and operational ?

 

[Ak01]

Are all Type 54's delivered and operational ?

ya

 

[Ak01]

PN prob won't get anything as big as the TF-2000 because, ultimately, the PN is focused on asymmetrical gains. If the goal's to acquire a long-range AAW capability, then NHQ will focus on ensuring the JCF can use something like SIPER when available rather than seeking a larger ship for the sake of AAW.

The PN's real edge will come from its future sub-surface programs: SWATS, a next-gen SSP, and AUVs. A robust sub-surface presence will deter most threats, leaving surface platforms like the JCF (ideally with medium-to-long-range AAW) to round it out with AAW for a comprehensive umbrella.

I dont really get why the PN needs wide area AAW? For Area denial, the PN is actively seeking a MRSAM (CAMM-ER) for shore batteries. We dont exactly have tons of space to defend. A few ships, equipped even with CAMM-ER could be quite sufficient.

I do think JCF would get a new SAM, but then, a shortsighted decision to induct CAMM-ER, instead of standardising. I think the PN will be sticking to CAMM, i see all the signs to support this

 

[Quwa]

I dont really get why the PN needs wide area AAW? For Area denial, the PN is actively seeking a MRSAM (CAMM-ER) for shore batteries. We dont exactly have tons of space to defend. A few ships, equipped even with CAMM-ER could be quite sufficient.

I do think JCF would get a new SAM, but then, a shortsighted decision to induct CAMM-ER, instead of standardising. I think the PN will be sticking to CAMM, i see all the signs to support this

Yep, but my point was that if the PN wanted a long-range SAM, it'd focus on refitting the JCF more so than procure a new vessel type. It can be an option, but in the far future when a MLU comes up.

IMO... The other thing the PAF and PN need to sort out is trying to get some J-35AE coverage in the maritime space. I think that could play a big deterrence role against long-range IN air ops.

 

[FuturePAF]

One TF2000 would basically be equivalent to 4 JCF in terms of cost. Dispersing of the asset is an important ability that we need. One or two capital ships will be the main target and they will do whatever they can to get rid of them. It is just a risk, not worth taking.

Fair point about putting all your eggs in one basket. Perhaps radar tech will improve alongside more powerful turbines such that most of what a larger destroyer could do will be able to be done by smaller ships. We already see the HQ-16F with a 160 km range.

The worry in war time is the navy may not get enough air cover and will need adequate radar and air defense cover to hold the line as it were.

In one scenario, with Chinese warships in Djibouti, the PN would have to maintain the link between Karachi (primarily at the moment) and the Red Sea for the weeks of hostilities, whether tensions or active fighting. We can’t assume tensions may last only weeks but could drag for months in an Ukraine like scenario.

 

[Ak01]

Yep, but my point was that if the PN wanted a long-range SAM, it'd focus on refitting the JCF more so than procure a new vessel type. It can be an option, but in the far future when a MLU comes up.

IMO... The other thing the PAF and PN need to sort out is trying to get some J-35AE coverage in the maritime space. I think that could play a big deterrence role against long-range IN air ops.

Kizelma maybe?

Using it as a forward based sensor too could be quite beneficial, keeping the sultans far back and using them as bomb trucks with their rotary bays.

1000km range road’s being lobbed at ships with data provided by drones at the forefront- while they also go after in air assets while being controlled from the sultans. They did want an awacs and not just aew for the sultans

 

[blueboy7862]

PN prob won't get anything as big as the TF-2000 because, ultimately, the PN is focused on asymmetrical gains. If the goal's to acquire a long-range AAW capability, then NHQ will focus on ensuring the JCF can use something like SIPER when available rather than seeking a larger ship for the sake of AAW.

The PN's real edge will come from its future sub-surface programs: SWATS, a next-gen SSP, and AUVs. A robust sub-surface presence will deter most threats, leaving surface platforms like the JCF (ideally with medium-to-long-range AAW) to round it out with AAW for a comprehensive umbrella.

Sir, 054B is the most suitable design for PN. We can ask Chinese friends to integrate HHQ-9B for AAW with some other major changes/modification in it's design & weapon systems.

 

[Ak01]

Sir, 054B is the most suitable design for PN. We can ask Chinese friends to integrate HHQ-9B for AAW with some other major changes/modification in it's design & weapon systems.

Is it though.

Why? What makes it better/more suitable?

If anything, id argue, since JCF is still not finalised, perhaps we could see something with greater magazine depth.

 

[FuturePAF]

Kizelma maybe?

Using it as a forward based sensor too could be quite beneficial, keeping the sultans far back and using them as bomb trucks with their rotary bays.

1000km range road’s being lobbed at ships with data provided by drones at the forefront- while they also go after in air assets while being controlled from the sultans. They did want an awacs and not just aew for the sultans

Any chance the Sea Sultans could add a long range AESA sensor such as the following to add that long range detection capability as well. This was originally built for the P-3C so it should be light enough for the Sea Sultans. Relaying the data to frigates could give them heightened awareness close at least within the EEZ.

AN/APS-154 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Quwa]

Any chance the Sea Sultans could add a long range AESA sensor such as the following to add that long range detection capability as well. This was originally built for the P-3C so it should be light enough for the Sea Sultans. Relaying the data to frigates could give them heightened awareness close at least within the EEZ.

AN/APS-154 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They'll likely use either Leonardo Seaspray 7500 V2 or Hensoldt PrecISR 1000, both GaN AESA radars.

 

[m52k85]

We dont exactly have tons of space to defend.

That is one in many considerations. The other important factor being how much heat the IAF and IN combined can throw at a time, that is increasing as each day passes.

Add in the defence of future off shore rigs Pakistan may be lucky enough to get to, then you are looking at even an aircraft carrier as an asymetric gain.

 

[Yasser76]

That is one in many considerations. The other important factor being how much heat the IAF and IN combined can throw at a time, that is increasing as each day passes.

Add in the defence of future off shore rigs Pakistan may be lucky enough to get to, then you are looking at even an aircraft carrier as an asymetric gain.

IAF is decreasing in size, relative to it's size, PN is growing vis a vis IN in terms of major combat vessels

 

[Ak01]

They'll likely use either Leonardo Seaspray 7500 V2 or Hensoldt PrecISR 1000, both GaN AESA radars.

I believe it was the seaspray, for eoir it was the same unit as the p8

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I think PN strategy is somewhat influenced by its experience in the last war it participated.... missile attack on Karachi from the sea, sinking of its warship near Karachi and sea lane blockade without little use of INS four foxtrot subs by INS. Aggressive offensive patrolling by PN subs and scoring success, lack of eyes in the sky, stuck in a "Vulnerable to attack port," and lack of long rage radar surveillance of its coast. Where they fared badly was their inability to effectively keep the sea lanes open and defend Karachi Harbor

Since then, I feel, PN invested in:

Its eye in the sky assets
Availability of a dedicated Naval port relatively removed from the immediate conflict area
Dedicated Naval Air Strike Element
Littoral Radar Surveillance and netcentric capability.
Building up on its sub strike capability .... still in progress
A fully missile armed fleet with a land attack capability

The area I feel PN lacks is ASW role of its surface fleet. Seems like PN is totally banking upon its Airborne ASW assets. The fleet ASW assets; onboard systems and airborne (Helo based) assets are, IMHO, on the weaker side. I fear that in the event of hostilities, India, having invested a lot on its subsurface fleet in recent years, will use it aggressively to hinder sea denial patrols by PN surface fleet.

 

[Ak01]

I think PN strategy is somewhat influenced by its experience in the last war it participated.... missile attack on Karachi from the sea, sinking of its warship near Karachi and sea lane blockade without little use of INS four foxtrot subs by INS. Aggressive offensive patrolling by PN subs and scoring success, lack of eyes in the sky, stuck in a "Vulnerable to attack port," and lack of long rage radar surveillance of its coast. Where they fared badly was its inability to effectively keep the sea lanes open and defend Karachi Harbor

I feel PN invested in:

Its eye in the sky assets
Availability of a dedicated Naval port relatively removed from the immediate conflict area
Dedicated Naval Air Strike Element
Littoral Radar Surveillance and netcentric capability.
Building up on its sub strike capability .... still in progress
A fully missile armed fleet with a land attack capability

The area I feel PN lacks is ASW role of its surface fleet. Seems like PN is totally banking upon its Airborne ASW assets. The fleet ASW assets; onboard systems and airborne (Helo based) assets are, IMHO, on the weaker side. I fear that in the event of hostilities, India, having invested a lot on its subsurface fleet in recent years, will use it aggressively to hinder sea denial patrols by PN surface fleet.

That’s where the subsurface fleet comes into play though for th PN. Swats eyc will hug the coast and effectively form a defensive line against the IN. Paired with the sultans and some form of SOSUS network (potentially- there have been rumours of this for ages now and I wouldn’t be shocked!) creates a pretty formidable line of defense. If you look at gids portfolio, a lot of domestic sonar and naval kit!