Jinnah Class Frigate | Updates & Discussion

[PakistaniDefender]

azb+rek= $20,000 maybe $30,000?

cm400akg=$1.67m.

With cost comes Range as well. Will u use AZB+REK with 100km or CM400AKG with range 250km considering Indian ships are equipped with Barak 8 with 100km+ range and their navy will also operate Rafale Ms in future

 

[rafale]

1. India stationing the S-400 that close to the border will put those S-400s at risk of Army guided missile fire and OWE/LMs. In that deployment scenario, Pakistan's first priority will be to neutralize that nearby S-400 as quickly as possible, likely via ground-based SSM and OWE/LM fire.

2. A SAM's range is tied to altitude; so the farther you go out in range, the more gaps you leave at low level/altitude coverages (due to the curvature of the Earth). This is why low-flying tactics are key in SEAD/DEAD ops. You'd negate low-flying threats by filling out the long-range SAM's coverage gaps with low-level SAMs. However, India can't exactly place low-level SAMs within Pakistani territory (or they can, but at that point, we're talking about some next level intelligence problems).

The problem with S-400 is that they are mobile....and like AVM mentioned in his brief.....locating them, where they are exactly, is the problem. If we do have live sat imagery access, then of course they can be targeted before our strike jets get airborne.

I see that a better, land launched Anti Radiation weapon would be needed to kill S-400 in the initial salvos....and not just S-400...but other types in service with their AD.

Or even better would be to jam and spoof them as much as possible...i am assuming Turkey would be of help in this regard since they already operate S-400s/F-16s and also have plethora of EW/ECM products.

 

[Oscar]

Yep. I think the one thing worth seeing is whether the PAF re-deploys the Block-52+ to the maritime theatre, especially as J-10CE (or possibly J-35AE) taking up the 'spear-tip' duty.

In its current config, the Block-52+ are very good for countering the IN MiG-29K threat, augmenting the ASCM-equipped JF-17s.

Granted, we (acc. to Scramble) have No.8 JF-17Cs there too, hence the Block-52+'s BVR isn't a must-have per se. However, the Block-52+ do outrange the JF-17s (via CFTs) and are credible assets in themselves.

If we could upgrade those to the V or OZGUR, then the match with PN support would be perfect, IMO, as a counter to the Rafale Ms.

Technically they could deploy from Jacobabad but the Block-52s badly need a software update to still use their suite to its full potential.

Eventually they would warrant a V.

The Mig-29K threat is overstated especially if its off Vikranf - it’s pretty limited with payload and fuel restrictions.

If anything it’s rumored the UPGs are having so many problems that Ks are augmenting them up north with MKIs providing actual Maritime cover.

 

[rafale]

Technically they could deploy from Jacobabad but the Block-52s badly need a software update to still use their suite to its full potential.

Eventually they would warrant a V.

The Mig-29K threat is overstated especially if its off Vikranf - it’s pretty limited with payload and fuel restrictions.

If anything it’s rumored the UPGs are having so many problems that Ks are augmenting them up north with MKIs providing actual Maritime cover.

@Oscar

and how much that changes when they get the maritime Rafales?

 

[Yasser76]

Technically they could deploy from Jacobabad but the Block-52s badly need a software update to still use their suite to its full potential.

Eventually they would warrant a V.

The Mig-29K threat is overstated especially if its off Vikranf - it’s pretty limited with payload and fuel restrictions.

If anything it’s rumored the UPGs are having so many problems that Ks are augmenting them up north with MKIs providing actual Maritime cover.

MIG-29K threat is non existent. Carrier sailed for 3 days in may and sailed right back to home port.

If it gets past PN Sub, it will then have to stay 400km away due to PN coastal missiles

It will then have to generate attack sorties with MIGs flying top cover and also a CAP pair over the carrier 24/7. That intself will require 6 planes to be kept back for CAP. Remember they have no organic refuellers or AEW either

If 4-6 MIGs do manage to make it anywhere near Karachi they are massively outranged by AMRAAMS and PL-15S.

You will just end up with 6-0 over the Arabian Sea and possibly the loss of a carrier.

 

[Oscar]

@Oscar

and how much that changes when they get the maritime Rafales?

To an extent it creates a greater threat but then an additional J-10C squadron for the south

 

[studsmart]

PN needs to improve its capabilities and local build capacity. One thing that the period from May 7th to May 10th has shown is that the old mindset of valuing numbers and size matters less. The new net-centric and disruptive technology application reshapes the entire security paradigm across all branches. Whether it is Navy, Army, or Air Force, this represents a massive shift from the mindset of the past, like during World War II. New affordable technology plays a vital role in the overall sea-fighting system dynamics. Having a capable platform with the right type of weapons, electronic warfare, net-centric systems, drone support, air support, and ship security makes size irrelevant. JCF with the right mix of these items will be a challenging platform to IN. And if PN goes for bigger tonnage, it should come with all bells and whistles.

 

[Tank131]

PNs (and Pakistans as a whole) biggest need is a more resilient and reliable. Air defense network. While HQ-9 AND reportedly HQ-9B performed reasonably well along with the more point defense style missiles and guns against India, this was the clear chink in the armor. And as weak as the aor defense over Pakistani airspace may be without fighters, the naval theater is far more dire an issue. I think any future attack may come from the sea given how poorly IAF performed as a whole and the fact that even the vaunted S400 performed poorly. So PN needs to be even more aggressively equipped for air defense than the rest given the current disparities.

First thing is that the best way to deal with hypersonic missile attack is long range, fire and forget, missiles backed by a plethora of medium ranged, fire/forget quick reaction missiles. In my estimation the available missiles to PN that fit that bill will be Siper block1 or block 2. Reportedly these should be able to intercept aircraft and missiles up to 100 - 150km respectively. Behind these should be medium ranged quick reaction missiles like CAMM-ER. Now PN needs to force the issue here because if they intend to continue these then it needs to make the supplier (Italy/Leonardo) find a way to enable PN to quad pack these. The clear answer would be Sylver and Mk-41 launchers which can already do so. But those arent available so PN needs to get these certified for MDAS. JCFs should come with MDAS from go (while 16 cells is insufficient in my eyes - should try for 32 cells) this can be somewhat mitigated if they are carrying quad packed missiles. 8 siper and 32 CAMM-ER (From total 16 cells). The baburs should also be upgraded to 8 cell MDAS (from 12 cell GWS.26). This will give them 32 medium ranged missiles, dramatically increasing survivability.

If Italy cant figure out a way to make it work or neither turk or Italy show a willingness to do so, the. PN should move on from CAMM-ER and replace it with G/M-1 (upgraded and quad packed variant of Hisar D/RF - 40KM range). G/M-1 is specifically designed to take on Hypersonic missiles with a new AESA radar seeker and a new guidance algorithm for better interception rates against supersonic anti-ship missiles.

Tughrails also need a better missile than HQ-16. HQ-16FE could fit the bill with addition of a dual mode (ARH/SARH) seeker and the 160km range. Sadly the number would still be limited by the lack of quad packing but the range and independent firing with ability to engage 8 targets (vs current 4) and at far longer ranges, would improve survival of these ships as well.

If Tughrail and JCFs are lead ships backed by smaller ships like Yarmooks, Baburs, and F-22P which all ideally would also be converted to quadpacked 8 cell VLS with CAMM-ER or G/M-1, then these battle groups should enable long range engagement of brahmos attacks (with Sipers and HQ-16FE) and have enough fast reaction missiles to cover the group for any additional brahmos breaking through. All the while you could have a sub with each group and a handful operating at sea alone in hunter killer roles.

 

[ARMalik]

PN needs 4 x Type 052 Destroyers as lead ships.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

MIG-29K threat is non existent. Carrier sailed for 3 days in may and sailed right back to home port.

If it gets past PN Sub, it will then have to stay 400km away due to PN coastal missiles

It will then have to generate attack sorties with MIGs flying top cover and also a CAP pair over the carrier 24/7. That intself will require 6 planes to be kept back for CAP. Remember they have no organic refuellers or AEW either

If 4-6 MIGs do manage to make it anywhere near Karachi they are massively outranged by AMRAAMS and PL-15S.

You will just end up with 6-0 over the Arabian Sea and possibly the loss of a carrier.

The carrier won't be alone. It will have ships and subs like Visakhapatnam, Kolkata, Nilgiri class, Scorpenes etc. Brahmos has range 500km+ and that will be the primary weapon with Mig29Ks just for CAPs around the CSG

 

[Metal 0-1]

potentially fitting F-16s with azb rek's could actually do a pretty nice job against ships, particularly in terms of overwhemling AD.

PAF already uses ARM equipped Azb for SEAD. Could be used in this theatre too, imagine 20 AZB's inbound, not an easy target to intercept

Lol no. You could have said Navy's Air Launched Harpoon missiles. Which makes way more sense.

 

[Ak01]

Lol no. You could have said Navy's Air Launched Harpoon missiles. Which makes way more sense.

It’s amazing people talk without reading.

 

[Yasser76]

The carrier won't be alone. It will have ships and subs like Visakhapatnam, Kolkata, Nilgiri class, Scorpenes etc. Brahmos has range 500km+ and that will be the primary weapon with Mig29Ks just for CAPs around the CSG

In the age of long range anti-ship missiles, unless IN can secure air suprioritgy, these ships will be toast. If we can take out S-400s we can take these out

 

[Metal 0-1]

In the age of long range anti-ship missiles, unless IN can secure air suprioritgy, these ships will be toast. If we can take out S-400s we can take these out

Ships are constantly on the move. S-400 is static when deployed. And we've no confirmation if S-400 was destroyed or not. But SEAD mission was still a success since they had to relocate.

It’s amazing people talk without reading.

I like how you assume that quick sink is a standoff weapon,


Our jets need to launch I-Rek way inside Indian Ships SAM coverage. Secondly Modern Fire Control Radar know how to differentiate between some projectile gliding at very low speed and cruise missile coming at them.

Your best bet is SPJ equipped fighters and long range decoy drones with ramjets to overwhelm their defences.

 

[Yasser76]

Ships are constantly on the move. S-400 is static when deployed. And we've no confirmation if S-400 was destroyed or not. But SEAD mission was still a success since they had to relocate.


I like how you assume that quick sink is a standoff weapon,
View attachment 141402

Our jets need to launch I-Rek way inside Indian Ships SAM coverage. Secondly Modern Fire Control Radar know how to differentiate between some projectile gliding at very low speed and cruise missile coming at them.

Your best bet is SPJ equipped fighters and long range decoy drones with ramjets to overwhelm their defences.

Two S-400s were destroyed, that may cause you pain but there you go.

Just like Chinese sats were used for real time targeting you can bet your very last dollar (or Indian Rupee) they have perfected ship tracking to enable realy time missile targeting of moving IN assets. They are planning to defeat the USN with this tech.

IN will be target practice.