Lessons for Pakistan from the Israel/Iran conflict of June 2025

Sorry, not gonna click on a BS Indian link. No Pakistani or Western media has reported this, only Modi media. You can believe that if you wish.

This is a non story.

Anyway, back to the point.

ISI is in a totally different league to RAW it is not even a fair comparison. Only yesterday IAF had to arrest another employee for leaking secrets. I think this may be the 8th arrest in last 2 years.

ISI's effectivness can be seen in the monkey in prison in Pakistan right now, hacked IAF comms, BD becoming pro Pak and Israel failing in any attempt to disrupt Pak nuke programme.

RAW does not even figure in the equation anymore. Big game is between CIA, Mossad, MI6 and ISI.

RAW can stick to trying influence the Sri Lankan elections....
Its from 2019, and yes it did happen.

Both Pakistan and Nepal accuse India of kidnapping a retired Pakistani army officer.

To this day, we have no information of where he is, other than being in India somewhere under RAW.
 
Its from 2019, and yes it did happen.

Both Pakistan and Nepal accuse India of kidnapping a retired Pakistani army officer.

To this day, we have no information of where he is, other than being in India somewhere under RAW.

Do you have a credible source for this? Sounds like a story to salvage Indian pride once we captured their RAW clown
 
Sorry, not gonna click on a BS Indian link. No Pakistani or Western media has reported this, only Modi media. You can believe that if you wish.
man they have


these things happen in espionage, not wise to say its propaganda altogether
they kidnapped a rt officer , obviously their plan was prisoner exchange and looks like we didnt budge
this kidnapping is on ISI ( should have got a wind of this op ),and the guy for faling for this , hope army cautioned others.
 
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Do you have a credible source for this? Sounds like a story to salvage Indian pride once we captured their RAW clown
Pakistani sources reported it at the time. Im not gonna go up and dredge up the past over an established fact.

This sort of thing happens all the time on both sides, where soldiers and army officers get either kidnapped or honey trapped.

For example, in the early years of the Musharraf administration, a female ISI officer went in to India, slept with a Indian Naval officer, stole thousands of documents, and came back to Pakistan in the middle of the night.

It happens.

Fun fact, its an open secret but the ISI hires a lot of non-muslim women and men to perform these sorts of operations, as Muslim agents tend to object due to the moral and religious issues they have to actively break in order to complete such missions...bonus points if they're atheist.
 
man they have


these things happen in espionage, not wise to say it propaganda altogether
they kidnapped a rt officer , obviously their plan was prisoner exchange and looks like we didnt budge
this kidnapping is on ISI ( should have got a wind of this ),and the guy for faling for this , hope army cautioned others.
also we should have kidnapped a ret officer too not raw but just a normal rt officer
tit for tat
 
I have to completely disagree with your framing here, specifically your reliance on “publicly available evidence.” Judging an intelligence agency strictly by what becomes public is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the espionage and security world actually operates.

By definition, intelligence successes remain classified, while intelligence failures become public. When an agency successfully intercepts a threat, turns an enemy asset, or secures a quiet strategic backchannel, nothing happens. It does not make the news, there are no press conferences, and the public is never “privy to it” because revealing it would burn sources and methods. But when an agency fails, a bomb goes off, a proxy goes rogue, or a political scandal leaks.
If you apply your exact “public evidence only” standard to the CIA, their public record is missing 9/11, claiming there were WMDs in Iraq, the Bay of Pigs, letting the Taliban walk back into Kabul, and getting their entire informant network in China executed. Does that mean the CIA has ceased to be an effective agency? No. It just means that when you only measure a covert organization by the things that blow up in its face, you are looking at a curated highlight reel of its worst mistakes.

Saying “we aren’t privy to their successes, so we’ll just judge them by their visible failures” is textbook confirmation bias. It is like judging a cybersecurity firewall only by the three viruses that got through, while completely dismissing the three million attacks it blocked in the background just because you couldn’t see them. You can criticize their policy choices, but using public visibility as your metric for operational competence is a deeply flawed way to analyze any intelligence service in the world.

Exactly my point! By this metric, one can deduce a whole lot on the effectiveness of the ISI. I rest my case.

Ps

The CIA has committed numerous blunders but on the whole, it’s vastly superior to any other intelligence agency out there.
 
man they have


these things happen in espionage, not wise to say its propaganda altogether
they kidnapped a rt officer , obviously their plan was prisoner exchange and looks like we didnt budge
this kidnapping is on ISI ( should have got a wind of this op ),and the guy for faling for this , hope army cautioned others.

@Yasser76 you learned something new today even though you keep running around like a headless chicken and keep denying this incident.
 
Exactly my point! By this metric, one can deduce a whole lot on the effectiveness of the ISI. I rest my case.

Ps

The CIA has committed numerous blunders but on the whole, it’s vastly superior to any other intelligence agency out there.
And my point is that it is a flawed metric unless you are Completely ignorant of what it takes for securing a country.
 
A civilian employee posted at an Indian Air Force station in Assam has been arrested for allegedly spying and sharing sensitive information with Pakistan’s ISI.

The accused revealed that he had been in contact with Pakistani intelligence operatives since 2023 and was allegedly sharing confidential information in exchange for money, officials said.


-NDTV/News18/IndiaTelegragh

lmao @Falcon26 just saw this
ISI still knows HUMINT huh
 
And my point is that it is a flawed metric unless you are Completely ignorant of what it takes for securing a country.

I get your argument but you seem to justify the ISI’s ineffectiveness by putting it operations in the broader distorted context and state failure of Pakistan. My argument is that the ISI is the main architect of this distorted context. When the state wants to push through guilty charges, when it wants to rig elections, when it wants to silence critics, the ISI is almost always the entity that engages in these activities for the state. The ISI chief is the second most powerful individual in the country. So your argument that the ISI’s failures should be read in the complex environment it operates in is problematic because the ISI is the chief architect of this environment.
 
A civilian employee posted at an Indian Air Force station in Assam has been arrested for allegedly spying and sharing sensitive information with Pakistan’s ISI.

The accused revealed that he had been in contact with Pakistani intelligence operatives since 2023 and was allegedly sharing confidential information in exchange for money, officials said.


-NDTV/News18/IndiaTelegragh

lmao @Falcon26 just saw this
ISI still knows HUMINT huh
RAW cant match ISI in HUMINT
 
I get your argument but you seem to justify the ISI’s ineffectiveness by putting it operations in the broader distorted context and state failure of Pakistan. My argument is that the ISI is the main architect of this distorted context. When the state wants to push through guilty charges, when it wants to rig elections, when it wants to silence critics, the ISI is almost always the entity that engages in these activities for the state. The ISI chief is the second most powerful individual in the country. So your argument that the ISI’s failures should be read in the complex environment it operates in is problematic because the ISI is the chief architect of this environment.
You’re still making the same leap by saying the ISI is deeply involved in managing Pakistan’s distortions is not the same as proving it is the sole architect of all of them. That takes a messy system with many willing participants, politicians, judges, bureaucrats, parties, and power centers, and compresses it into one neat villain because it is easier to argue that way.

That is why your framing feels selective. You are taking scattered feathers and building a crow out of them: every abuse, every manipulation, every failure gets piled onto one actor until the whole state is reduced to a single explanation. The ISI can be powerful, intrusive, and deeply harmful in many areas without being the master author of every pathology in Pakistan. That is not a defense of it, just a rejection of an argument that is too tidy for a reality this untidy.

You want a boogeyman - help yourself to it, I don’t see merit to that argument at any level or going around in circles for it.
 
You’re still making the same leap by saying the ISI is deeply involved in managing Pakistan’s distortions is not the same as proving it is the sole architect of all of them. That takes a messy system with many willing participants, politicians, judges, bureaucrats, parties, and power centers, and compresses it into one neat villain because it is easier to argue that way.

That is why your framing feels selective. You are taking scattered feathers and building a crow out of them: every abuse, every manipulation, every failure gets piled onto one actor until the whole state is reduced to a single explanation. The ISI can be powerful, intrusive, and deeply harmful in many areas without being the master author of every pathology in Pakistan. That is not a defense of it, just a rejection of an argument that is too tidy for a reality this untidy.

You want a boogeyman - help yourself to it, I don’t see merit to that argument at any level or going around in circles for it.

Let’s agree to disagree. My main thesis is that the ISI is not constrained by the state decay in Pakistan. The ISI, in many ways, produced this state decay. The ISI might not be the only villain, but it is too central to the dysfunction and state decay to hide behind the dysfunction it helped engineer.

Appreciate your insights but I haven’t seen a satisfactory explanation that moves me away from my main thesis.
 

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