PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

[KingQamaR]

Beautifully put.

Your very kind

 

[RAMPAGE]

What do we know about the origins of the Burq AGM? @Quwa @JamD

 

[KingQamaR]

Pakistan has sophisticated air defence and anti-tank weaponry, drones , satellites, loitering weapon, artillery systems, mean that old-fashioned blitzkrieg is now problematic, at least in a fight between a sophisticated adversaries. Sure, you can use 60s , 70, 90, old tanks to attack Pakistan , but you better have an artillery advantage and in all areas on the battlefield or your tank attack will end up like the charge of the light brigade.

 

[JamD]

What do we know about the origins of the Burq AGM? @Quwa @JamD

Yes Chinese AR-1.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Yes Chinese AR-1.

Do you think it was reverse-engineered?

 

[nahtanbob]

Different environments - boggy think marshes versus our unforgiving deserts?
Even within Punjab the breakthroughs can be made with combined ops.

Although- technically for both sides the danger remains the extreme environment.

Its not a matter of if but when indian forces can breakthrough and the associated costs to do it.

wouldn't the rivers in Punjab be a formidable obstacle ?

you have a long border with India - at least it is relatively straight. Ukraine has equally long border with Russia - in fact their defense lines are even more precarious.

Only thing I can think of is that Russia does not have the manpower to sustain an armored breakthrough.

 

[Pingle]

Yes, that is our primary need, not tanks. For warfare to succeed on the basis of armoured formation superiority, we need to overwhelm the opposing forces either through mass or through movement, and we need control of the skies, and against a daring foe like the PAF, it is better not to count on this. Also, dominating the PAF, either in the air or through Air Defence, is more difficult while advancing, as the settled bases are left further and further behind, easier when defending.

Taking these two factors into account, artillery is important. Your solution of producing tank destroyers, and self-propelled artillery, is better, less expensive, less vulnerable and more effective than tanks.

China is difficult to plan against, as we stand against the PLA in the same disadvantage as the Pakistan Army faces against us: the defender is defending from a height, the attacker has to climb; the defender is defending internal lines of defence, the attacker has to traverse longer distances to get to grips with the strategic objectives. On top of that, the PLA has enormous logistical superiority. What to do against such a foe has to be thought through very carefully. Not impossible, but very, very difficult.

How useful be our Zoravar light tank in future as per you? Since it's a light tank not only it will give us edge in mountain region but also it will be far much easier to cross region with rivers and other obstacles compared to T72/T90.....

 

[JamD]

Do you think it was reverse-engineered?

Maybe. Or ToTed. Don't know.

 

[Joe Shearer]

How useful be our Zoravar light tank in future as per you? Since it's a light tank not only it will give us edge in mountain region but also it will be far much easier to cross region with rivers and other obstacles compared to T72/T90.....

It has tracks, and we call it a light tank. With wheels, or on a 6x5 chassis, we could call it an armoured car. This relatively light weight armoured vehicle is what we need in our composite units of the future, either to accompany the infantry when it has dug down and is in the middle of a fire-fight, or to make a lunge forward along with an air cavalry detachment to make a flanking or a probing movement. Together with an Air Cavalry section, it should constitute a terrestrial scouting and reconnaissance element in the composite units.
The problem is with the composite units.
Instead of driving down the presence of all currently used systems - UAVs, for observation and additional fire power, attack helicopters and utility troop-carrying helicopters acting in close conjunction with the otherwise familiar combinations of infantry, armour and artillery to the smallest possible formation, and drilling the hell out of our formed units, the Indian Army is thinking like a military bureaucracy about this.

 

[CSAW]

More details have emerged about a new helicopter-launched anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) that was used in training exercises by the aviation units of the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF).

Chinese state-owned media released video footage on 6 August showing the weapon being fired from several Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Zhishengji-10 (Z-10) attack helicopters assigned to the PLAGF’s 161st Air Assault Brigade under the 83rd Group Army.



A screengrab from CCTV 7 footage released online on 6 August showing two units of a new ATGM being loaded onto one of the launchers of a PLAGF Z-10 attack helicopter. The launcher is also carrying what appears to be a pod. (Via js7tv.cn)
The missiles were shown striking targets, including tanks and other armoured vehicles, after being fired from some distance, suggesting that this is a fire-and-forget weapon. Each of the launchers under the helicopter’s stub-wings was seen carrying two missiles along with what appeared to pods, although their precise function was not immediately clear.

The Z-10s were seen working in conjunction with at least one Z-19A attack helicopter equipped with a mast-mounted millimetre-wave (MMW) radar that is similar in appearance to the Lockheed Martin AN/APG-78 Longbow fire-control radar fitted to the Boeing AH-64 Apache.

As Janes previously reported, the new missile somewhat resembles the China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) Blue Arrow 21 (BA-21) missile that was displayed at the Airshow China 2018 defence exhibition in Zhuhai.

The BA-21 appears to be an improved export version of the AKD-10 third generation, precision-guided battlefield missile carried by the PLAGF’s Z-10 and Z-19 rotorcraft. The BA-21, of which no official information has emerged, is believed to have a range of about 18 km and be fitted with a dual-mode MMW radar/semi-active laser seeker.

Chinese Z-10 Helicopter Unveils New Rocket Launcher in Live-fire Drills

Z-10 is used in anti-tank warfare, close air support, reconnaissance, and other combat missions.

www.defensemirror.com

 

[Oscar]

wouldn't the rivers in Punjab be a formidable obstacle ?

you have a long border with India - at least it is relatively straight. Ukraine has equally long border with Russia - in fact their defense lines are even more precarious.

Only thing I can think of is that Russia does not have the manpower to sustain an armored breakthrough.

Not with the river crossing capabilities IA has but we may also he ignoring the elephant in the room(or I could be making it up in error). Unlike Ukraine, Pakistan has a lot less land to lose before its “internal organs” are reached.

Most of the industrialization is not that far from the border in Punjab - and then the main communication arteries (currently) the same.

So its not a case of allowing the loss of territory like Ukraine and still keeping a fight on.

 

[nahtanbob]

Not with the river crossing capabilities IA has but we may also he ignoring the elephant in the room(or I could be making it up in error). Unlike Ukraine, Pakistan has a lot less land to lose before its “internal organs” are reached.

Most of the industrialization is not that far from the border in Punjab - and then the main communication arteries (currently) the same.

So its not a case of allowing the loss of territory like Ukraine and still keeping a fight on.

Crossing a river is easy. But if you cannot sustain your forces across a river you have to retreat.
Russian army was a sitting duck in Kherson and had to pull back across a river to avoid getting slaughtered

It is easy to defend Northern and Central Punjab. Defending Sind (east of Indus) is not. Of course losing Sind and retaining Punjab is not an acceptable outcome.

I am assuming both sides have enough hardware and ammo to fight.

 

[Pingle]

For crossing rivers our homemade SARVATRA system comes to mind but I don't have any latest updates on this
Project and how many units we have.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not with the river crossing capabilities IA has but we may also he ignoring the elephant in the room(or I could be making it up in error). Unlike Ukraine, Pakistan has a lot less land to lose before its “internal organs” are reached.

Most of the industrialization is not that far from the border in Punjab - and then the main communication arteries (currently) the same.

So its not a case of allowing the loss of territory like Ukraine and still keeping a fight on.

You are right.

It requires a point crossing by air by a strong infantry formation on choppers, to form a bridgehead on the further side, to protect engineering efforts to bridge the gaps (much of the borders are carefully guarded with man-made barriers parallel to the rivers), or to capture actual existing bridges. If telegraphed, these may be bloodied by an alert enemy, but it is also unlikely that every inch of land is guarded equally well.

The sequence of events for these river crossings is best left to the imagination of individuals.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In the current war with Russia vs Ukraine, a river decided the battle of the pontoon bridges over the Seversky Donets river in the eastern Donbas region in which an entire Russian armoured battalion was destroyed....River crossing is one of the most difficult military tasks; especially when trying to use combat bridging. You need; Air superiority ( or no enemy air threat or ground threats) Go get an advance group across to the enemy side to secure the bridgehead on the side; by swimming, wading or by helicopters.. Lets not get ahead of ourselves in this thread remember after Mumbai incident couple of years ago your Indian army lost hundreds and hundreds of its own personnel mishaps just peacefully mobilising . Like I said You’re talking about a very complex thing to do in war under severe conditions enemy fire.

True.

It is also one of the most rewarding things to achieve in any armed conflict against Pakistan by India.

We are discussing possibilities, in an abstract frame of mind, please let these not be misunderstood.