PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

[KingQamaR]

How totally I agree with you!

For instance, take the vast number of Vijayanta and T55 tanks being used as stationary gun platforms. Imagine if these, a sample few of each type, had been handed over to one of our excellent robotics labs.

Looking at your wish-list, heavy sensors would be an addition, not heavy in terms of technical intensity , but in terms of sheer weight, such that a UAV would find it difficult to carry that weight economically.
Drones, of course, with not a tank but an APC, not even an IFV, housing several operators, and equipped with 'heavy' communications equipment.
Soldier coordination would be very tricky, but I think that can be worked around with a suitable attention to doctrine.

As far as Pakistan-India tank tactics are concerned, have you ever wondered why one side that is economically and in terms of production capacity better equipped does not concentrate on artillery and get the upper hand? Surely that should precede armoured use?

When you fight for your life, you will be as strong as a lion, when you want to punish someone who is smaller than you, even one punch will hurt your first. That is my own experience. The Indian army or any army cannot fight wholeheartedly where as someone fight for their survival.

 

[Joe Shearer]

When you fight for your life, you will be as strong as a lion, when you want to punish someone who is smaller than you, even one punch will hurt your first. That is my own experience. The Indian army or any army cannot fight wholeheartedly where as someone fight for their survival.

Possibly.
The Indian Army has not shown, yet, that it hesitates to defend the nation. While the smaller player fighting for his life against the bigger player merely punishing the other is an interesting one, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.
Let us leave it at that. Pursuing this can only lead to hurtful comments being made, hurtful to one side, at any rate.

 

[Awwad]

View attachment 16253
The Turkish weapon systems which have entered mass production. For most things mentioned here these would be our answer soon. Although KAROK range is less but we can work with Turkey to increase it beyond 4 KM. Also join the OMTAS and UMTAS Anti Tank and Anti Bunker weapons project.

No Way!
No more Imported items. 6th Largest Army of the world will ruin even stabilized economies if it's mass requirements are fullfilled by imports. Atleast all army requirements should be fullfilled locally / indigenously. Pakistan has hundreds of thousands of employees on tax payer's cost in massive organisations like HIT, POF, KRL, PAEC, there are literally hundreds of thousands of engineers & technicians. You know Import / Export balance is the key for economy. The money Pakistan takes out of country and hand it over to others to buy items creates a deficit in economy.

I have heard most ridiculous arguments once that Army have its "own" businesses, so it need not tax payer money. It's a straight face lie. Then why it takes largest chunk of the national budget? Even a single military import is never done by army's own means. There is zero proof in baseless theory. All purchases are done by national budget or in form of installments / loans from China. Army can't even pay its officers pensions with its own fund. That also goes from federal budget (Tax payers pocket). So, bottom line is Pakistan must pay attention to its local capabilities to develop these land based systems. STOP IMPORTS. All those billion dollars imports in last several few years have already created massive deficit in import / export and wrecked the economy.

As far as Indian Armour is concerned, no one is entering deep into Pakistan as long as Pakistan's airforce exists. Airforce can pound any invading troops / force out of existence. First phase of war will primarily involve to defeat each other's airforce. Whoever establishes air-superiority will most likely win the war. Tanks are most vulnerable in modern day, A small drone mounted with RPG's grenade can wreck a $4 million Tank. See video below, how 100s of Russian tanks are obilerated by $2000 mini drones.


Important to notice: These are same type of tanks being obilerated with cheap drones which are in most numbers in Indian army. T-90s, T-72s etc.

Few years ago I saw a documentary on Netflix Age of Tanks. The narrator says in the end that age of Tanks is coming to an end. I still believed that Tanks are still very important piece of combined arms, but at the same time the above video shows how vulnerable the tanks have become in modern age.

We all have seen WW1 and WW2 had important naval vessel called as Battleship, with dozens of large guns and extremely thick steel armour. It was like a tank of the navies. Where it is today? It's extinct because it became too easy for then air power to sink those ships. The video above is an eye opener for anyone who still believes in spending massive import $$ on tanks or buying expensive imported items to defeat tanks. All answers to anti-tanks are available in-house. Focus on your own industry and you will be able to even export the stuff. If you keep buying then you will never be able to export anything.

 

[Zarvan]

No Way!
No more Imported items. 6th Largest Army of the world will ruin even stabilized economies if it's mass requirements are fullfilled by imports. Atleast all army requirements should be fullfilled locally / indigenously. Pakistan has hundreds of thousands of employees on tax payer's cost in massive organisations like HIT, POF, KRL, PAEC, there are literally hundreds of thousands of engineers & technicians. You know Import / Export balance is the key for economy. The money Pakistan takes out of country and hand it over to others to buy items creates a deficit in economy.

I have heard most ridiculous arguments once that Army have its "own" businesses, so it need not tax payer money. It's a straight face lie. Then why it takes largest chunk of the national budget? Even a single military import is never done by army's own means. There is zero proof in baseless theory. All purchases are done by national budget or in form of installments / loans from China. Army can't even pay its officers pensions with its own fund. That also goes from federal budget (Tax payers pocket). So, bottom line is Pakistan must pay attention to its local capabilities to develop these land based systems. STOP IMPORTS. All those billion dollars imports in last several few years have already created massive deficit in import / export and wrecked the economy.

As far as Indian Armour is concerned, no one is entering deep into Pakistan as long as Pakistan's airforce exists. Airforce can pound any invading troops / force out of existence. First phase of war will primarily involve to defeat each other's airforce. Whoever establishes air-superiority will most likely win the war. Tanks are most vulnerable in modern day, A small drone mounted with RPG's grenade can wreck a $4 million Tank. See video below, how 100s of Russian tanks are obilerated by $2000 mini drones.


Important to notice: These are same type of tanks being obilerated with cheap drones which are in most numbers in Indian army. T-90s, T-72s etc.

Few years ago I saw a documentary on Netflix Age of Tanks. The narrator says in the end that age of Tanks is coming to an end. I still believed that Tanks are still very important piece of combined arms, but at the same time the above video shows how vulnerable the tanks have become in modern age.

We all have seen WW1 and WW2 had important naval vessel called as Battleship, with dozens of large guns and extremely thick steel armour. It was like a tank of the navies. Where it is today? It's extinct because it became too easy for then air power to sink those ships. The video above is an eye opener for anyone who still believes in spending massive import $$ on tanks or buying expensive imported items to defeat tanks. All answers to anti-tanks are available in-house. Focus on your own industry and you will be able to even export the stuff. If you keep buying then you will never be able to export anything.

Yes, we need imported items closing import won't make our defence industry the best in a day. We have to do both simultaneously. We have to get the weapons from other countries meanwhile build our own also. It has to go hand in hand and slowly reduce dependence on foriegn stuff which can only happen if we allow private giants to enter defense game.

 

[Awwad]

Yes, we need imported items closing import won't make our defence industry the best in a day. We have to do both simultaneously. We have to get the weapons from other countries meanwhile build our own also. It has to go hand in hand and slowly reduce dependence on foriegn stuff which can only happen if we allow private giants to enter defense game.

I respectfully disagree. I think Pakistan can fullfill its all Army requirements Locally. I understand that for Airforce and Navy Pakistan has to import because the level of sophistication is too much. But for land based systems there are so many organisations and so much money being poured every month to keep those orgs running. Just need better management, give them projects, give them timelines and milestones and they will give results (provided better management is done)

Pakistan cannot succeed with over reliance on imports. It must have focus on localization and that will ensure that one day it will start competing with Turkey in exports.

 

[Zarvan]

I respectfully disagree. I think Pakistan can fullfill its all Army requirements Locally. I understand that for Airforce and Navy Pakistan has to import because the level of sophistication is too much. But for land based systems there are so many organisations and so much money being poured every month to keep those orgs running. Just need better management, give them projects, give them timelines and milestones and they will give results (provided better management is done)

Pakistan cannot succeed with over reliance on imports. It must have focus on localization and that will ensure that one day it will start competing with Turkey in exports.

They cannot. I wish that was the case but no they can't.

 

[Joe Shearer]

<<Is it safe to come out?>>

 

[Awwad]

They cannot. I wish that was the case but no they can't.

Come on, I am not asking to make a 5th gen fighter. Why HIT, POF, KRL, PAEC, NDC etc can't make even anti-tank options? I cannot believe it. They can and they already produced some options.
Did you see the video I posted, how basic / cheap and effective this solution was employed by Ukrainians. Must watch:


Remember, this is the russian army stopped at its tracks, the largest tank force in the world. The russian army is a trained army, they know combined arm operations. It was russians which defeated hitler's largest army. If they are struggling against most basic drone options / or atleast suffered heavy causalities then I believe anyone can. Pakistan can make much more effective options like this or more advanced forms of this. Important aspect is self reliance and enhancing your own products and even exporting those in the market.

 

[Zarvan]

Come on, I am not asking to make a 5th gen fighter. Why HIT, POF, KRL, PAEC, NDC etc can't make even anti-tank options? I cannot believe it. They can and they already produced some options.
Did you see the video I posted, how basic / cheap and effective this solution was employed by Ukrainians. Must watch:


Remember, this is the russian army stopped at its tracks, the largest tank force in the world. The russian army is a trained army, they know combined arm operations. It was russians which defeated hitler's largest army. If they are struggling against most basic drone options / or atleast suffered heavy causalities then I believe anyone can. Pakistan can make much more effective options like this or more advanced forms of this. Important aspect is self reliance and enhancing your own products and even exporting those in the market.

An answer to Javelin takes lot of technology. That technology is not easy to get.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Any tank these days without significant anti-infantry capabilities to counter AT weapons will fail. This means tanks must locate infantry elements and have weapon systems that can eliminate them before they can fire AT weapons. This mean tanks must use or have in support significant Drone coverage not only for scouting but the targeting of non-LOS munitions from the tank or from other units armour personnel carriers. ( I mean like Bradley type’s)

If tanks do the above then tanks would be fighting out of their element n fail to fulfill their role.....
Its the infantry that needs to keep up with the armor elements not the other way around. The Germans lost the war against the russians the moment Hitler ordered his panzers to stop, so that the infantry could catch up....this when the panzers had routed the russians.

AT are a threat but the real threat are loitering ammo, ucav, uav ......neutralize those n the tank has a chance

 

[Awwad]

An answer to Javelin takes lot of technology. That technology is not easy to get.

That's exactly the thinking which I am trying to change. Why we have to go for a specific imported product? First of all Pakistan army should not be looking for an expensive solution. It's a massive army, it needs locally produce, cost effective solutions. You said about Javelin. Why on earth PA needs a specific product Javelin? Next they will make Javelin NG, then all of you will start advocating to get it, Some other country will make and market XYZ product and you all will want to get hands on it. We can make our own tech in these organisations, even if its not as fancy as others but local production has its own perks. Anti-tank is not something which Pakistan can't do. It's doing already for ages. Just need to up the game.

You said, we cannot become one of best forces in the world with our own production. I have opposite views, Pakistan can never become a strong country with imported weaponry. A dependent country can never be strong. Saudi arabia would have been the strongest country on earth if buying weapons can make you strong.

Suppose you give millions of dollars to turkey for anti-tank weapons. They will use your money for their own R&D and 2 years later, they will introduce some other far better weapon then your recent purchase. They are only doing business and earning maximum amount of money out of poor Pakistanis. Those weapons have shelf life of 10-20 years max. They will expire anyways and maybe never used in war. Instead if you have spent even half that amount in your own R&D and development, not only you would make local production but maybe able to export and with time you will introduce next versions and more capable versions. Pakistan should establish itself in small arms, infantry weapons, anti-tank niche, it has the full capacity to do so.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Weapons are in a constant state of flux. The UAVs are new to the scene but soon enough, armies will create countermeasures for them as well.
Era or tanks is not over but rather they will adapt to the new threat.

 

[nahtanbob]

How totally I agree with you!

For instance, take the vast number of Vijayanta and T55 tanks being used as stationary gun platforms. Imagine if these, a sample few of each type, had been handed over to one of our excellent robotics labs.

Looking at your wish-list, heavy sensors would be an addition, not heavy in terms of technical intensity , but in terms of sheer weight, such that a UAV would find it difficult to carry that weight economically.
Drones, of course, with not a tank but an APC, not even an IFV, housing several operators, and equipped with 'heavy' communications equipment.
Soldier coordination would be very tricky, but I think that can be worked around with a suitable attention to doctrine.

As far as Pakistan-India tank tactics are concerned, have you ever wondered why one side that is economically and in terms of production capacity better equipped does not concentrate on artillery and get the upper hand? Surely that should precede armoured use?

If India makes too many artillery or tanks won't that incentivize Pakistan to deploy more nuclear warheads ? @KingQamaR @Joe Shearer

 

[Joe Shearer]

If India makes too many artillery or tanks won't that incentivize Pakistan to deploy more nuclear warheads ? @KingQamaR @Joe Shearer

It might do so.
The point is that they are not refraining from doing so due to boy restraint on the past of India.
They build nuclear devices with no fixed objective in mind, with some kind of reflex action, typically to match and outdo the figures of the China oriented nuclear arsenal that India has developed.
Against that kind of irrational behaviour, nothing India does will have any effect, towards building more or refraining from action.

 

[nahtanbob]

It might do so.
The point is that they are not refraining from doing so due to boy restraint on the past of India.
They build nuclear devices with no fixed objective in mind, with some kind of reflex action, typically to match and outdo the figures of the China oriented nuclear arsenal that India has developed.
Against that kind of irrational behaviour, nothing India does will have any effect, towards building more or refraining from action.

If India has 10,000 tanks and 10,000 155mm Howitzers Pakistan is going to increase the number of nukes they have and lower the threshold for their use. Read the Warsaw Pact and NATO balance of power during the Cold War. Indian government has no idea for all those tanks and artillery pieces unless there is full fledged two front war. There is no need for all those weapons as long as you can call on Uncle Sam for help. It is better to focus on economic development. As long as China is a threat to USA you can count on Uncle Sam. India is no Afghanistan or South Vietnam. Those duffel bags in Pakistan & China know it. You see what Ukraine does to Russia. The state of the Ukraine military is a joke in 2014. With just American intel right now you can slap both Pakistan & China silly