PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM

[Oscar]

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has - some more speculative that the other:
1. Taimoor is developed from Raad and is thus a big boy. A conventional ALCM is better sized like the SOM, which has the luxury of not starting off as a nuclear delivery system. Half the weight, much smaller size - heck was meant to be carried internally by the f35. You could possibly deploy twice as many SOMs as Taimoors if size and weight was the only concern - probably even more since Taimoors size makes it quite unwieldy.
2. It is clearly designed with radar stealth in mind and should be more survivable (did i mention it is small?)
3. It is made by Turkey, which has a very developed defense industry. This means possibly quite advanced inputs such as sensors, EW suites, turbojets are on the SOM.
4. The missile has been tested and produced at scale. Just Turkiye has 500 ordered. Also Azeri order. We've proof that we've produced 1 Taimoor so far. These kinds of numbers tell you how many are supposed to be carried (point 1) and there is are economies of scale and many many kinks are ironed out when you produce so many.
5. The turbojet is local and not bad in terms of fuel consumption. This and 4 probably keeps the cost down.
6. The SOM has had SO many tests (because of 4) compared to Taimoor (1), which helps iron out kinks
7. Very very likely SOM has a much lower per unit cost than Taimoor
8. Yes the range of the SOMJ is basically half of Taimoor but I am not sure if that added range is worth all of the problems above. How many targets does PAF really want to hit 500km inside India and how many can it even hit when it can barely produce any Taimoors.

In summary the SOM is a much better optimized design for an ALCM than Taimoor، both in terms of capability and producability (is that a word?lol). Taimoor's Raad heritage holds it back a lot in so many ways. SOM is what Rasoob could be but SOM started development in 2014.

You didnt mention cost and why an "intangible" is blocking the SOM.

 

[AeronautIR]

How does this rocket-boosted REK-III compare with H4-SOW?

Both are quite different in the sense that H-4 can be controlled even after the launch, but not REK.
The TV guidance in H-4 transmits live video to control aircraft and the pilot can steer the weapon through datalink.

 

[Gripen9]

Any clearer pictures? It's laser-guided, right?

LGBs are Al Battar line. These are glide bombs with GPS guidance I believe ala JDAM. There are versions with IIR and anti radiation seeker as well.

 

[Gripen9]

My Taya, two aunt's sons, my fatehr in law, brotehr in law, etc have served/are serving in the military. I don't discuss military things with them (Taya has died anyway) as I don't want them to land in trouble.
My granny prayed that my father might not get selected, and he failed in ISSB.

I am color blind otherwise would have been in uniform. When I found out, my father was kind of relieved

 

[Gripen9]

Both are quite different in the sense that H-4 can be controlled even after the launch, but not REK.
The TV guidance in H-4 transmits live video to control aircraft and the pilot can steer the weapon through datalink.

H4 is/was similar to Israeli Spice/Popeye offering

 

[AeronautIR]

H4 is/was similar to Israeli Spice/Popeye offering

We based it on South African Denel series of Raptor PGMs.

 

[Gripen9]

I wonder why they weren't employed in May

Here are my 2 cents on that.

PAF hit Bernala IACCS and S400 with CM400 as those were identified as threats to our air ops.

Our belated response by PA with Fatah was more for optics. Majority of the current sat images being shared are of superficial damage to India infrastructure by thise rinky dinky Yiha drones.

PA dig bang the yindus up with sh15 in kashmir and across IB.

I may totally be wrong and thoae Fatah rockets might have caused a lot of damage.

 

[Gripen9]

We based it on South African Denel series of Raptor PGMs.

That had collaborated with Israelis a lot during apartheid

 

[Liquidator]

First answer I do not know. For Azb series we have seen Qaswa so that we know is being produced at some scale. Fatah series maybe yes maybe no, I don't know.


@Quwa has spoken about this a lot. Our planners don't realize they'll actually be richer if they followed the Turkish model. Unfortunately, our babus suffer from incompetence and an inflated sense of self that forces them to have the "I can do it" attitude when they don't have the capacity. Unfortunately, when you call out their incompetence they:
1. Go into denial
2. Claim you're a traitor and spy
3. Claim you don't respect all the work they've done for you
4. Shut you up with threats that are carried out to you and your family if you make too much noise (if you happen to be inside an SPD org - I know of several horror stories)

Great posts and excellent point that must be addressed "nationally". This culture is holding us back.

I'd like to share something that is a good example of the personality traits being discussed. Whilst not missile related I think it is appropriate to share....if a MOD disagrees then feel free to delete however I do feel it is important to this discussion.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Pakistan had a go at "manufacturing" a car, whatever that means.

The main guy / CEO wanted the lime light. He was interviewed above in a courteous fashion. The journalist then proceeded to take visuals; note at the 5:05 mark the observation that the side mirrors are from a Toyota....no big deal right?

The main guy overheard, had a hissy fit and forced him to stop recording. You can see the full interaction above at around 5 min mark. His objections made no sense:

- whatever the parts, this is a Pakistani car
- what you are doing is not right (paraphrasing)

Now honestly, a car sharing parts is no big deal. One of the most exclusive Italian manufacturers (Pagani) use Mercedes engines. Lambirghini used side indicators from Ford (see attachment). It really is no big deal.

Copy the Europeans at what they do best....technology, research and development etc and let's include a certain work ethic:

- the ability to take constructive criticism.
- knowing your limitations.
- delegating to the most appropriate person.
- continual professional development, self reflection not just for yourself but for whoever may be under you.
- A work environment where you can challenge and give your own ideas.
- the RIGHT MAN FOR THE JOB....

Without the above, you stagnate.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

When it comes to ground launched offensive weapons, no one seems to be talking about TELs. Pakistan could be producing thousands of H1/2/4, Babur, etc but if there's no way to deploy them and use them, they may as well be useless. Does anyone know if we at least produce our own TELs or do we have to import them? How many regiments of Babur, H1, H2, do we actually have? Have we seen any increased orders for TELs? That would be a sure way to see if we've actually ramped up production of these weapons.

yeah, Brahmos and k4 have many Tels and no hardened, grounded and camouflaged launch sites..

 

[AeronautIR]

That had collaborated with Israelis a lot during apartheid

Quite possible, as both these weapons came out around the same time in 1980s.

 

[hussain0216]

To its credit, the PN is trying to take this step via PMSTP. I think NHQ has broadly agreed on letting the private sector lead with Gwadar Shipyard, if not now, then soon after work kicks off. Moreover, Pak Gov't has signed off on greatly expanding the merchant navy, with plans to source both state-owned and privately owned ships through local production. This will all (hopefully) be deferred to Gwadar (a public-private partnership with domestic and foreign investors), and could one day take on PN core projects too (E.g., subs, ships, etc).

Once the Army and PAF-tied decision-makers see the output on the naval side, I think they'll reevaluate (perhaps via a future generation of leaders).

I think eventually the entire military will follow

The military hierarchy probably understand that the Pakistani traditional method won't work

We can't produce limited numbers of special weapons in labs and specialist work shops because we will never have enough

We are either then forced to procure from other countries or be under armed



A lot of different weapons have gradually been revealed by Pakistan over the last 10 or so years

It's a slow creaking process to drag Pakistan to modernity

But the signs are there , that change is happening however slowly where eventually we will end up with a system that can produce enough to supply our domestic and export needs

 

[AeronautIR]

I think eventually the entire military will follow

The military hierarchy probably understand that the Pakistani traditional method won't work

We can't produce limited numbers of special weapons in labs and specialist work shops because we will never have enough

We are either then forced to procure from other countries or be under armed



A lot of different weapons have gradually been revealed by Pakistan over the last 10 or so years

It's a slow creaking process to drag Pakistan to modernity

But the signs are there , that change is happening however slowly where eventually we will end up with a system that can produce enough to supply our domestic and export needs

NASTP is one example of it too.

 

[side-winder]

NASTP is one example of it too.

It's actually very nice to see civilians in such large numbers with very healthy pay / compensation packages employed at NASTP / Cyber Command / Crypto setups etc.

Some of people there are actually drawing salaries even more than CAS. But that's the way forward.

 

[Ali_Baba]

NASTP is one example of it too.

NASTP will only fix things if some of the existing people in state run organisations are moved into NATSP so that there is consolidation of skills, experience and products and more critical mass in things like engine development, drones and smart munitions etc.

The manufacturing side has to be fixed too so that it is not laboratory style manufacturing but more more industrial on scale.