PAF F-16 | Discussions

[RajaBaja]

18 block 52 upgraded to v standard will cost PAF between 1.5-1.6 billion USD. Which is not worth it.

Comming to ozgur/murad upgrade of the remaining block 15/20 ac. Turkey it self is reported to be putting its own fleet of 79 ac through this upgrade for around 7 billion usd.
Thats around 85 million per ac !. Its any thing but cheap.
If PAF has that sort of money lying around then might as well go for the v upgrade, as heirs hardly any diff price wise.

All this waste of money over an ac that is sanction prone, plus with these upgrades the u.s oversight of the f 16 will increase many folds.
On top of it all we have better and more advanced options

You have to read the cost correctly. A baseline F-16 can be purchased between $ 75-90 Million. How is it that it's upgrade requires the same amount of money? Let's take an example of Taiwan:

"Dec 16, 2024 · Taipei acquired 142 F-16A/B jets, later upgraded to the F-16V standard. In 2019, Washington approved Taiwan’s purchase of 66 new F-16C/D Block 70 jets for $8 billion."

If you read the above, these state of the art aircraft come with AESA, etc, for $ 121 million a piece brand new. Taiwan is US's second tier support country and US gives it the latest tech to fight the Chinese.

You quoted Poland but read cost incorrectly. The cost you listed for Poland, includes the entire upgrade + average weapons package + average customization + average support cost that then makes it to $ 200 or whatever million it is. US weapons are new to Eastern European nations, including Poland, so they are spending huge on setting up infrastructure and pay a huge amount to US for support. They are learning American systems. We've been killing Indian top end aircraft with American weapons since Pakistan was created and have a huge support system locally. So we'd spend much less on support contracts.

Same with India, Rafale doesn't "alone" cost $ 200+ million, it's the entire package, a big part of it goes to support services that France charged.

Now to Pakistani F-16's block 52, these are already at 52+ (PLUS) standard. We already have other sensitive tech for defensive suite and targeting pods like SNIPER, etc. We don't need encryption and re-modularized Link-16 because our standard is link-17 and current link 16 works nicely.

For block 52, the REAL upgrade we need, is just the SABRE radar and associated missiles (AMRAAM D-1 / D-3's). Now we'll de-link the missile cost, rest is structure enhancements and radar cost, and may be a few electronics. Maximum per plane will not exceed $25 million per piece. By separating the missile costs.

Now onto F-16's MLU. The cost of Turkish Murad AESA is not more than $ 5 million per piece. It's absolutely not going to be more than KLJ-7A J-10C version that's battle tested and proven. So let's make it higher, per F-16 upgrade, adding structural upgrades and life extension kits also, you are still below $ 20 million if you get it done through Turkey. Not $ 45 or 60 million that you are quoting.

We are keeping the missile prices separate as that will be a bigger order that may have a partnership or TOT. You can add 10-15% SD (Standard Deviation) in my analysis but that's it.

Hopefully this can settle the dust on F-16 upgrade. A Radar upgrade alone with some components don't cost as much as a new jet because we aren't buying a massive support, services and weapons package with it.

 

[rafale]

I t

The Polish Defense Minister Wladysław Kosiniak-Kamysz has signed a deal worth $3.8 billion for the MLU of the Polish Air Force's F-16 fleet. As part of the deal, all 48 F-16C/D Block 52+ jets currently in service will be upgraded to the F-16V Block 72 standard.
That comes down to almost 90 mil per ac.
So my original estimate of 100 mil was right!

Is it available anywhere what the total 3.8 Billion USD cost includes? Does it also include AMRAAM Ds? How many?

 

[Reichmarshal]

You have to read the cost correctly. A baseline F-16 can be purchased between $ 75-90 Million. How is it that it's upgrade requires the same amount of money? Let's take an example of Taiwan:

"Dec 16, 2024 · Taipei acquired 142 F-16A/B jets, later upgraded to the F-16V standard. In 2019, Washington approved Taiwan’s purchase of 66 new F-16C/D Block 70 jets for $8 billion."

If you read the above, these state of the art aircraft come with AESA, etc, for $ 121 million a piece brand new. Taiwan is US's second tier support country and US gives it the latest tech to fight the Chinese.

You quoted Poland but read cost incorrectly. The cost you listed for Poland, includes the entire upgrade + average weapons package + average customization + average support cost that then makes it to $ 200 or whatever million it is. US weapons are new to Eastern European nations, including Poland, so they are spending huge on setting up infrastructure and pay a huge amount to US for support. They are learning American systems. We've been killing Indian top end aircraft with American weapons since Pakistan was created and have a huge support system locally. So we'd spend much less on support contracts.

Same with India, Rafale doesn't "alone" cost $ 200+ million, it's the entire package, a big part of it goes to support services that France charged.

Now to Pakistani F-16's block 52, these are already at 52+ (PLUS) standard. We already have other sensitive tech for defensive suite and targeting pods like SNIPER, etc. We don't need encryption and re-modularized Link-16 because our standard is link-17 and current link 16 works nicely.

For block 52, the REAL upgrade we need, is just the SABRE radar and associated missiles (AMRAAM D-1 / D-3's). Now we'll de-link the missile cost, rest is structure enhancements and radar cost, and may be a few electronics. Maximum per plane will not exceed $25 million per piece. By separating the missile costs.

Now onto F-16's MLU. The cost of Turkish Murad AESA is not more than $ 5 million per piece. It's absolutely not going to be more than KLJ-7A J-10C version that's battle tested and proven. So let's make it higher, per F-16 upgrade, adding structural upgrades and life extension kits also, you are still below $ 20 million if you get it done through Turkey. Not $ 45 or 60 million that you are quoting.

We are keeping the missile prices separate as that will be a bigger order that may have a partnership or TOT. You can add 10-15% SD (Standard Deviation) in my analysis but that's it.

Hopefully this can settle the dust on F-16 upgrade. A Radar upgrade alone with some components don't cost as much as a new jet because we aren't buying a massive support, services and weapons package with it.

Sorry for the delayed reply
Baja bhai ur arguing for the sake of argument. u don't bother to read others ppls posts and hence repeat things that have been discussed and ansed.
Even though u accuse others of not listening to ur point of view but the fact is it u who refuse to hear/consider others' point of view, not just in this thread but all over this forum.

As you stated above, I've addressed them in one form or another in my posts in this thread.

 

[RajaBaja]

Sorry for the delayed reply
Baja bhai ur arguing for the sake of argument. u don't bother to read others ppls posts and hence repeat things that have been discussed and ansed.
Even though u accuse others of not listening to ur point of view but the fact is it u who refuse to hear/consider others' point of view, not just in this thread but all over this forum.

As you stated above, I've addressed them in one form or another in my posts in this thread.

Sorry if you felt that I didn't read your post. This issue of cost was coming up in every few threads. So I tried to cover it.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Sorry if you felt that I didn't read your post. This issue of cost was coming up in every few threads. So I tried to cover it.

We're here to learn from each other; no one knows everything.

 

[RajaBaja]

We're here to learn from each other; no one knows everything.

Some do know and been part of these discussions or negotiations. I hope the difference of "platform cost" and "fly away cost" is now clear.

 

[Reichmarshal]

I t

Is it available anywhere what the total 3.8 Billion USD cost includes? Does it also include AMRAAM Ds? How many?

cant find the details of the weapons package.....guess you'll have to google it ur self

 

[Reichmarshal]

Some do know and been part of these discussions or negotiations. I hope the difference of "platform cost" and "fly away cost" is now clear.

lol....if u say so

 

[Taimoor]

I state it again unless until the money for the PAF block 52 upgrade is coming from u.s in one form or another.
100 mil for an upgrade is not worth it. We could buy around 3 J10C or manufacture around 4 JF 17 block 3. And at the same time, retain total control of the aircraft and remain sanction-free

Fan boys are not thinking this over.

I have tried to dig info on aim260 and it's becoming rather clear that f16 will NOT be carrying it. Ds are the platform ceiling. And there is no assured first look, first shoot against Rafale/meteor combo, like we presently enjoy with j10/pl15. Plus there is an option (albeit very expensive) to upgrade to pl18 if need arise. No such scalability with f16s.

 

[Yasser76]

Fan boys are not thinking this over.

I have tried to dig info on aim260 and it's becoming rather clear that f16 will NOT be carrying it. Ds are the platform ceiling. And there is no assured first look, first shoot against Rafale/meteor combo, like we presently enjoy with j10/pl15. Plus there is an option (albeit very expensive) to upgrade to pl18 if need arise. No such scalability with f16s.

I think we all keep forgetting that we are only facing 32 or 33 Rafales now, they can only carry 2 Meteors each.

AIM-120D can handle the rest of IAF with ease.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I think we all keep forgetting that we are only facing 32 or 33 Rafales now, they can only carry 2 Meteors each.

AIM-120D can handle the rest of IAF with ease.

That is in my opinion a wrong way of thinking. When you are purchasing or upgrading you just not think of current form of enemy but also think of future? what if IAF increase Rafale and purchase 100s of them more replacing all their legacy fighters except su30?

 

[Taimoor]

I think we all keep forgetting that we are only facing 32 or 33 Rafales now, they can only carry 2 Meteors each.

AIM-120D can handle the rest of IAF with ease.

True, but I can bet that India will leave no stone unturned trying to bridge the gap after the tonking they receive.

So we look at options available to India. Go for more rafale/meteor combo. Or go for f35/aim260. Despite Indians talking about Russian option, R37M is carried by
MiG-31BM, Su-35S, Su-57, safe to say, their big fleet of su30 are not capable to launch this beast. Unless they opt for su57 but that's a very remote possibility since Russia itself only flying 30 units.

Realistically speaking we are looking more of rafale/meteor, or if and when Indians submit to yanks, f35/aim260. Both of these future threats can be subdued with j10/pl5->pl18.

We achieved air superiority over Indians not because they got donkies flying their jets, it was primarily due to our technological superiority over them , and we should never let that advantage compromise or erode.

 

[rafale]

I think we all keep forgetting that we are only facing 32 or 33 Rafales now, they can only carry 2 Meteors each.

AIM-120D can handle the rest of IAF with ease.

India will get more Rafales for sure......to show the fake pompo of operation Bindooor success......

Meteor is not integrated on IAF rafales, obviously they will speed up that part and french will milk them.....but meteor being tested at 200km kill range with new RBE-2 radar is still yet to be seen.

IAF won't be a fully 200km kill range force for at least 1-2 years. Money can surely buy things, but can't speed up clogged and bogged production as well as testing and integration. PAF got that part right in 2022.

 

[ThoroughPro]

The Polish Defense Minister Wladysław Kosiniak-Kamysz has signed a deal worth $3.8 billion for the MLU of the Polish Air Force's F-16 fleet. As part of the deal, all 48 F-16C/D Block 52+ jets currently in service will be upgraded to the F-16V Block 72 standard.
That comes down to almost 90 mil per ac.
So my original estimate of 100 mil was right!

That is pretty steep, how much is a brand new block 70/72. i think upgrade costs more because its more labour intensive (double the work strip, inspect, upgrade, put back together again)

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

OMG Guys...

Gangustan's News18 has reported...

Pakistan May Have To Phase Out US-Supplied F-16 Fighter Aircraft Due To Engine Issues

That is why Pakistan needs to upgrade it's F-16s to Block 70. Buy more used F-16s that can also be upgraded to Block 70. The F-16 Block70 are considered to be clear and future danger for the Indians.