PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[side-winder]

@side-winder
Is there a way to mute another member on this forum?

You can choose to put anyone on ignore list. There is an option for that when you click on the profile of the member.

 

[AeronautIR]

You can choose to put anyone on ignore list. There is an option for that when you click on the profile of the member.

Thank you... I saw what you did there.

 

[Oscar]

I appreciate the concern brother, though I used to sign Official Secret Act every year and wouldn't have said a word if it was secret or not true.
Now, before I am called an ex serviceman pompous prick by someone, kindly guide me if it is against the rules of the forum.
One perk of early retirement is that your buddies are still serving in various departments. They will give me a courtesy call before sending the Vigo.
I don't think my post would make anyone angry except some of the esteemed members here. But I will absolutely respect your input if it is against any policy of moderators.

Many years ago - I was sitting across a Dr Mband and asked him a question regarding Shaheen 3 upper stage after talking on typical education and employment.
He had made those comments on a PTV interview on youtube . A lot more infact than I was asking.
His mouth said “Go see the interview”
I rephrased about something else and he said “Go see the interview, it’s on youtube”

 

[Jango]

I appreciate the concern brother, though I used to sign Official Secret Act every year and wouldn't have said a word if it was secret or not true.
Now, before I am called an ex serviceman pompous prick by someone, kindly guide me if it is against the rules of the forum.
One perk of early retirement is that your buddies are still serving in various departments. They will give me a courtesy call before sending the Vigo.
I don't think my post would make anyone angry except some of the esteemed members here. But I will absolutely respect your input if it is against any policy of moderators.

Wow...things really have changed over the years.

 

[AeronautIR]

Many years ago - I was sitting across a Dr Mband and asked him a question regarding Shaheen 3 upper stage after talking on typical education and employment.
He had made those comments on a PTV interview on youtube . A lot more infact than I was asking.
His mouth said “Go see the interview”
I rephrased about something else and he said “Go see the interview, it’s on youtube”

So, am I correct in assuming that I haven't broken any rules of forum?

 

[AeronautIR]

Wow...things really have changed over the years.

Changed for better?

 

[Jango]

Changed for better?

Well...that certainly depends on perspective. And mind you, doesn't take long for it to change these days in the corridors of power

 

[AeronautIR]

Well...that certainly depends on perspective. And mind you, doesn't take long for it to change these days in the corridors of power

In short, my confidence in that courtesy call is misplaced. Good thing I have not spilled anything worthy of someone's attention.

 

[Oscar]

So, am I correct in assuming that I haven't broken any rules of forum?

Not at all but at the same time -
Statements tend to change.

In the Alan Warnes pinned PAF history from 98-2008 we has then ACM talk about the J-10A as being procured in numbers as a strike fighter.

But then too as I spoke to the aforementioned former CPD in 2011 he plainly said PaF is broke and barely able to pay interests on loans(forget principal) with the J-10 off the table.

A few years ago here another well meaning member made the claim that F-16 block 72s were landing in a few weeks and that default payment AH-1Zs were coming too.

We all knew then that was BS but in my view that specific member had good info except it was stale by a few weeks and few lobbyist meetings.

Not saying that applies to J-10C or J-35s but lets say funds change, moods change , scenarios change it is possible that DCAS(O) as you narrate will have outdated information.

More so, just as with the damage claims made by PAF - what is being claimed is usually correlated on the ground.

For e.g J-35 you would agree would likely require MES either building or updating existing maintenance hangars with more HVAC systems for environmental control regarding preservation of coatings.

JF-17 is parked outside like ghar ki murghi in the sun to bake because everything can be sourced and it’s simple enough to start up in a few button pushes(by design).

On the other hand the work that is needed to keep the J-35 within its specifications on RCS tolerances and also ensure reduced wear and tear on its EOTS means in most normal days and especially when it is in for a line visit it needs cooler temps and constant shade.

The only way is to update the maintenance hangars and then figure out which base gets updated HAS which are large enough to allow its height and tails to pass through along with potentially even having some air con in there.

That construction tender hasn’t been surfaced or hinted to nor is any visible effort to get there seen.

 

[AeronautIR]

Not at all but at the same time -
Statements tend to change.

In the Alan Warnes pinned PAF history from 98-2008 we has then ACM talk about the J-10A as being procured in numbers as a strike fighter.

But then too as I spoke to the aforementioned former CPD in 2011 he plainly said PaF is broke and barely able to pay interests on loans(forget principal) with the J-10 off the table.

A few years ago here another well meaning member made the claim that F-16 block 72s were landing in a few weeks and that default payment AH-1Zs were coming too.

We all knew then that was BS but in my view that specific member had good info except it was stale by a few weeks and few lobbyist meetings.

Not saying that applies to J-10C or J-35s but lets say funds change, moods change , scenarios change it is possible that DCAS(O) as you narrate will have outdated information.

More so, just as with the damage claims made by PAF - what is being claimed is usually correlated on the ground.

For e.g J-35 you would agree would likely require MES either building or updating existing maintenance hangars with more HVAC systems for environmental control regarding preservation of coatings.

JF-17 is parked outside like ghar ki murghi in the sun to bake because everything can be sourced and it’s simple enough to start up in a few button pushes(by design).

On the other hand the work that is needed to keep the J-35 within its specifications on RCS tolerances and also ensure reduced wear and tear on its EOTS means in most normal days and especially when it is in for a line visit it needs cooler temps and constant shade.

The only way is to update the maintenance hangars and then figure out which base gets updated HAS which are large enough to allow its height and tails to pass through along with potentially even having some air con in there.

That construction tender hasn’t been surfaced or hinted to nor is any visible effort to get there seen.

And that is why it is my opinion that we will see one J-35 prototype for evaluation in Pakistan that will help in deciding the bare minimum infrastructure required.
The initial airframes are not combat capable and if we get one to finalize the requirements, it will be much more cost effective. We can also give some specifications to Shenyang for PAF and then in 1-2 years, both the infrastructure and those aircraft will be ready.
It may not happen and maybe PAF changes plans like you mentioned, but I think this is a real possibility.
And about another J-10C sqn too, I think it makes complete sense because 20 is not enough. Practically, it was the only sqn that held IAF raid. With CCS J-10 started, we need more of them irrespective of J-35 plans.

 

[side-winder]

For e.g J-35 you would agree would likely require MES either building or updating existing maintenance hangars with more HVAC systems for environmental control regarding preservation of coatings.

This. I think MES ought to have got the approvals. If not, the works BOOs should atleast have been submitted to AHQ by now.

As an example, i know another AD system would be arriving soon. The corresponding prerequisite works, unit relocation, revision of establishment etc is already in progress.

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

 

[AeronautIR]

This. I think MES ought to have got the approvals. If not, the works BOOs should atleast have been submitted to AHQ by now.

As an example, i know another AD system would be arriving soon. The corresponding prerequisite works, unit relocation, revision of establishment etc is already in progress.

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

I have seen it before where things were kept under wraps till final construction of required structures.
Let's see what happens in 2026.

 

[MH.Yang]

PAF is in a defensive position in the confrontation with India, and I understand the necessity for PAF to retain an air superiority fighter jet. So I believe the second batch of J-10CE will arrive soon.

But I don't believe that PAF will obtain J-35 in 2026. This is not only because PAF has not made any preparations for the arrival of J-35, but also because SAC simply does not have the ability to deliver in 2026.

You should know that for China's military parade in September 2025, PLAAF even needs to send out all the J-35 prototypes to gather the required number of J-35 parade formations.

If you believe that SAC can deliver to PAF in one year, then you are overestimating SAC's efficiency. In other words, neither Pakistan nor China was ready for the J-35. I'm more inclined to believe it will appear after 2030.

 

[Oscar]

And that is why it is my opinion that we will see one J-35 prototype for evaluation in Pakistan that will help in deciding the bare minimum infrastructure required.
The initial airframes are not combat capable and if we get one to finalize the requirements, it will be much more cost effective. We can also give some specifications to Shenyang for PAF and then in 1-2 years, both the infrastructure and those aircraft will be ready.
It may not happen and maybe PAF changes plans like you mentioned, but I think this is a real possibility.
And about another J-10C sqn too, I think it makes complete sense because 20 is not enough. Practically, it was the only sqn that held IAF raid. With CCS J-10 started, we need more of them irrespective of J-35 plans.

But being from the QA bg yourself - why would you need an example on the ground besides eval in the operating environment to send feedback?

You have all the specifications to create the needful infrastructure. Similar to the Z-10ME in house where the first 3 Z-10 base models outlined the serious deficiencies in the system which were then updated for ME. That single example now is undergoing further validation before the full batch is ordered for delivery.

For that matter the PAF personnel have been advising already what they need(based on what they have access to). The J-10Cs were obviously a super sq to help create a OCU and offset some to CCS - and what’s been learned from May 25 is being retroactively requested for the next batch.

And they while they single handedly did hold their own there were fallbacks that could have held with expected losses.

 

[Oscar]

This. I think MES ought to have got the approvals. If not, the works BOOs should atleast have been submitted to AHQ by now.

As an example, i know another AD system would be arriving soon. The corresponding prerequisite works, unit relocation, revision of establishment etc is already in progress.

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

Im sure the BOOs went through but unless it’s being treated as Top Secret the requirements are to put it under the most obscure of terms in the local-ist of papers to satisfy needs of MoD processes.