PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[enroger]

It is kind of amusing to see people complain about corruption when J-10C was sold 40 mil a pop.

I wonder if Pakistan buy Typhoon at 110 mil a pop would those people still scream of corruption? Amusing thought indeed

 

[RajaBaja]

Discounted prices??? We have paid standard price for almost all of our equipment, $40 Million lmao, this guy really thinks China sold us J-10Cs cheaper than what they themselves buy it for

Let's avoid fake conspiracy theories since it's obvious our members like go to post anything as an expert without having a background.

Let's say, we are buying F-16's in today's price (I am using 2024's numbers that I know of 10-20% deviation possible). This below is just to make a logical point on how it actually works.

- Base line model: $ 70 million
- Add cost of customization such as IRIS-T, custom ejections seats (PAF uses MB 0-0), Sniper PODs, DRM modules, Customization to Defensive / Offensive equipment, Radar and Avionics upgrades.
- Weapons customization (any weapon that the buying airforce wants to purchase and integrate in addition to the above)
- Maintenance package
- Sustainment package
- Pilot training cost
- Any simulated training equipment cost for simulated cockpit training, etc.
Let's EXCLUDE weapons cost for this example for a critical point.
Total Cost Per Unit: Add ALL costs from above. It becomes the "Total lifecycle cost" per jet. It usually is between $ 100-130 million depending on selected options.

- Now we paid ONLY the baseline price of the J-10C at $ 40 million a piece. Meaning all the extra high tech equipment, support, training was included. If added separately, this equipment would've cost us another $ 15-20 million a piece!

That same equipment if in an F-16 block 72, would cost us near $ 100-120 million plus. Use your common sense to see the fat discount. India paid near $ 150 per Rafale! One has to be blind to ignore how big of a deal we've received from the Chinese.

Secondly, we bought 240 PL-15's separately right in April. Each missile is around $2+ million per piece. They reduced around .8-1 million per piece and we paid ONLY $ 210 million for 240 PL-15's. That's $ 1.14 million a piece, nearly 50% discount!

What more do we expect from the Chinese? They've cooperated with us beyond our ask, here we are insulting them with fake accusations of bribe.

This is the same issue I'm running on this and a few other threads. A person with knowledge on this process, wouldn't have written above post. I can only wish people will educate themselves first on the topic before making fake "expert" opinions.

It is kind of amusing to see people complain about corruption when J-10C was sold 40 mil a pop.

I wonder if Pakistan buy Typhoon at 110 mil a pop would those people still scream of corruption? Amusing thought indeed

Tell me about it. India paid near $ 150 million a jet with lower technology base Rafales. I think it's shameful to even have this argument. China has done for Pakistan defense that no other nation could do. It's stood us on our feet independent of any sanctions and that also, for half the cost.

 

[wanglaokan]

Favourable? PAF paid a standard price for the J-10C, also maybe $10-15 Million in bribes to win a $2 billion contract is nothing.

being a key board warrior cost you no price. you don't even know what you are talking about.

 

[Michael]

I agree with you on this. Pakistan must localise the JF17 in Pakistan fully, and manufacture the entire airframe in Pakistan. Some of the remaining tooling to do this, is quite expensive which is why Pakistan hasn't done it so far(and they did not do the K8 for the same reason). Talk of J10CE manufacturing in Pakistan makes no sense at all at any level, what will Pakistan "learn" from J10CE manufacturing that it cannot learn from J17C, answer is nothing.

My personal suggestion is:

PAC needs to delve deeply into JF-1B3 fuselage manufacturing technology. Pakistan should independently manufacture the complete JF-17B3 fuselage entirely within Pakistan. This step is inherently difficult. Simply producing the aviation aluminum alloys, titanium alloys, and composite materials used in aircraft manufacturing in Pakistan would require a massive investment of manpower, material resources, and financial resources. Furthermore, this research and production capacity must be integrated with civilian systems. The enormous R&D and production costs must be distributed across the vast civilian product market.

Afterward, Pakistan should shift its focus to basic research on aircraft design principles. The basic conditions for researching JF-17B3 subsystems (engine, radar, avionics, cockpit, etc.) are not yet in place.

Once Pakistan has fully mastered aircraft design technology, it can begin in-depth development of the JF-17, or even develop an entirely new fighter. Aircraft subsystems can be openly sourced internationally, from Chinese, American, and European suppliers. Everyone can compete on a level playing field, considering product performance, price, delivery time, and associated services.

As for more advanced fighter jets, the PAF can simply purchase them based on their needs and at the appropriate time. There's no need to expend significant resources seeking wholesale technology transfer. However, the PAF can purchase key advanced subsystem technologies at an appropriate time, depending on its economic situation. These technologies will be transferred to the indigenous fighter development program.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

It is kind of amusing to see people complain about corruption when J-10C was sold 40 mil a pop.

I wonder if Pakistan buy Typhoon at 110 mil a pop would those people still scream of corruption? Amusing thought indeed

Some people will only accept white man's products for Pakistan, otherwise, Pakistani leadership is compromised.

 

[RajaBaja]

My personal suggestion is:

PAC needs to delve deeply into JF-1B3 fuselage manufacturing technology. Pakistan should independently manufacture the complete JF-17B3 fuselage entirely within Pakistan.

Afterward, Pakistan should shift its focus to basic research on aircraft design principles. The basic conditions for researching JF-17B3 subsystems (engine, radar, avionics, cockpit, etc.) are not yet in place.

Once Pakistan has fully mastered aircraft design technology, it can begin in-depth development of the JF-17, or even develop an entirely new fighter. Aircraft subsystems can be openly sourced internationally, from Chinese, American, and European suppliers. Everyone can compete on a level playing field, considering product performance, price, delivery time, and associated services.

As for more advanced fighter jets, the PAF can simply purchase them based on their needs and at the appropriate time. There's no need to expend significant resources seeking wholesale technology transfer. However, the PAF can purchase key advanced subsystem technologies at an appropriate time, depending on its economic situation. These technologies will be transferred to the indigenous fighter development program.

It's time we end our relationship with the JF-17 airframe. This was a product of 1997 era technology and aviation industry. The JF-17 units will serve us for another 15 years, all at block III standard with a great service record.

We need our engineering pool re-trained in China. Partner with China on a single engine 5th gen stealth design and get numbers in from China as well as make them locally.

This is time to make this move and create a permanent standard of Pakistan's aviation industry at 5th gen level. From here, going to 6th gen in 10 years can happen easily.

We'll probably acquire more J-10C in numbers to supplement the existing J-10C's and JF-17's. But it should be the end of the JF-17's current airframe production. Time to move to 5th gen and train our people on Chinese process engineering for better manufacturing here. It's an opportunity for us to get ahead of 4th and 4.5th gen tech and leave India behind who will be busy in getting the Rafales again.

 

[Ali_Baba]

It's time we end our relationship with the JF-17 airframe. This was a product of 1997 era technology and aviation industry. The JF-17 units will serve us for another 15 years, all at block III standard with a great service record.

We need our engineering pool re-trained in China. Partner with China on a single engine 5th gen stealth design and get numbers in from China as well as make them locally.

This is time to make this move and create a permanent standard of Pakistan's aviation industry at 5th gen level. From here, going to 6th gen in 10 years can happen easily.

We'll probably acquire more J-10C in numbers to supplement the existing J-10C's and JF-17's. But it should be the end of the JF-17's current airframe production. Time to move to 5th gen and train our people on Chinese process engineering for better manufacturing here.

Quite an illogical approach, as it is the same approach that has not served Pakistan well historically and wont serve Pakistan well in the future. As has been said multiple times already, Pakistan has done these TOT projects repeatedly and still not progressed its core industry to the required level, and here you are, suggesting that it now needs the "next TOT" project to fix the core problems the previous projects have not fixed. The lineage for this failure being the K8, JF17.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Your suggestion on a 5th generation TOT project, is that insanity.

Pakistan needs a 5th generation capability, and that should be procured off the shelf for now through J-35/Kaan/UCAV/UAVs etc.

Pakistan should focus on building its core disciplines such that it can undertake its own 5th gen platform, in parallel to an off the shelf procurement of a 5th generation platform.

Pakistan should use its new core disciplines to build its own 5th generation UCAV/UAVs ...

Once it has mastered this step, it can look at turnkey aircraft design and manufacturing.

Turkieye has shown how Pakistan can built its aviation industry. Turkieye is using the large bulk of the industry and tooling that it developed for the 4th Gen F16 programme, to build the Kaan. The amount of new tooling required for the F-35 and Kaan was quite small. The bulk of what Turkieye had to build for Kaan was testing/validation infrastructure for airframe design validation, stealth airframe validation etc. You are confusing the generation of the aircraft with the underlying infrastructure and tooling required to build the platform.

Please explain why Pakistan has been stuck at 60% of the airframe manufacturing for the JF17 first ????

 

[bravo_1]

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[flyingorca]

Discounted prices??? We have paid standard price for almost all of our equipment, $40 Million lmao, this guy really thinks China sold us J-10Cs cheaper than what they themselves buy it for

40 mil includes armaments training spares etc. Compared to Rafale which is almost 200 mil.

 

[flyingorca]

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More J10s coming

 

[Michael]

It's time we end our relationship with the JF-17 airframe. This was a product of 1997 era technology and aviation industry. The JF-17 units will serve us for another 15 years, all at block III standard with a great service record.

We need our engineering pool re-trained in China. Partner with China on a single engine 5th gen stealth design and get numbers in from China as well as make them locally.

This is time to make this move and create a permanent standard of Pakistan's aviation industry at 5th gen level. From here, going to 6th gen in 10 years can happen easily.

We'll probably acquire more J-10C in numbers to supplement the existing J-10C's and JF-17's. But it should be the end of the JF-17's current airframe production. Time to move to 5th gen and train our people on Chinese process engineering for better manufacturing here. It's an opportunity for us to get ahead of 4th and 4.5th gen tech and leave India behind who will be busy in getting the Rafales again.

I really don't want to comment on your empty fantasies. Given your enthusiasm, I'll reply again.

China began promoting its "Industry 4.0" initiative many years ago. China's military-industrial complex is the primary target of profit. Since the J-10C, all new Chinese fighter jets have been designed based on intelligent pulse production lines. From the production of basic components to final assembly, intelligent robots are widely used. Over 80% of production workshops are "dark factories."

This production line is extremely efficient. It can operate 24/7, fully automated, requiring only a handful of employees to observe and monitor in a control room. However, it is extremely expensive. It requires a very high production volume to amortize these costs. ------ How many advanced 5th-Gen or 6th-Gen fighter jets do you think Pakistan's economy can support the PAF to purchase? If the production capacity of these production lines is less than 80-100 aircraft/year, it will face huge losses. Only when it can continue to produce at this capacity for more than 3 years will it become cost-effective.

These new Chinese fighter jets have been integrated with this intelligent pulse production line from the design stage. If they were assembled using traditional manual methods, the quality would not meet the design standards, efficiency would be extremely low, and the workers would be extremely demanding. China protects these workers like national treasures.

This is just the assembly technology. I haven't yet discussed component production technology or basic materials science and technology.

Any ability must start from the basics.

 

[CSAW]

 

[SABRE]

View attachment 146735

Rumor mills will be opening soon.

 

[Huzaifa]

we have funds, arrange via Qatar, just see what happens in future,

95 x J10CE in service within 3-4 years. (5 1/2 Sqns) all funded

And you know how?

 

[RajaBaja]

I really don't want to comment on your empty fantasies. Given your enthusiasm, I'll reply again.

China began promoting its "Industry 4.0" initiative many years ago. China's military-industrial complex is the primary target of profit. Since the J-10C, all new Chinese fighter jets have been designed based on intelligent pulse production lines. From the production of basic components to final assembly, intelligent robots are widely used. Over 80% of production workshops are "dark factories."

This production line is extremely efficient. It can operate 24/7, fully automated, requiring only a handful of employees to observe and monitor in a control room. However, it is extremely expensive. It requires a very high production volume to amortize these costs. ------ How many advanced 5th-Gen or 6th-Gen fighter jets do you think Pakistan's economy can support the PAF to purchase? If the production capacity of these production lines is less than 80-100 aircraft/year, it will face huge losses. Only when it can continue to produce at this capacity for more than 3 years will it become cost-effective.

These new Chinese fighter jets have been integrated with this intelligent pulse production line from the design stage. If they were assembled using traditional manual methods, the quality would not meet the design standards, efficiency would be extremely low, and the workers would be extremely demanding. China protects these workers like national treasures.

This is just the assembly technology. I haven't yet discussed component production technology or basic materials science and technology.

Any ability must start from the basics.

Michael - I know all about Dynamic manufacturing (you guys call it pulse manufacturing). Even Chocolate manufacturers like Kitkat and Sneakers use programmed Machines (Robotics) now. It's the new standard of manufacturing. Japan is nearly ALL Robotics manufacturing. TSMC has so far the world's most modern robotic chip manufacturing unit I've seen and China is coming close now. Malaysia has been operating Robotic manufacturing way before China did. Intel Corp and a few others put their first robotic manufacturing plants around 1995's! Vietnam and Philippines have them also for some Western companies.

So the point is, if Philippines, Malayia, Vietnam and Taiwan can have advanced manufacturing, Pakistan can too in the future.

We have the talent and education and 5th largest population who is tech savvy. We need to build our industry and need training and equipment for it and may be a couple of joint projects to gain experience. You can't just shun an argument because you compare everything to "today's China".

Where was China in advance manufacturing 40 years ago? While Japan and Malayia were already doing it? China was learning, building, adopting right? Us Pakistanis want to learn, build and adopt also so we can be self sufficient in key weapons manufacturing for our country. This model is called "Capability Maturity Model".

My post isn't fantasy, it's what our nation needs in terms of a working industry to sustain ourselves without other nation's involvement for key defense infrastructure. In a few years, more details will come out regarding our efforts towards acquiring and building 5th gen tech.

Regards,