PAF J-35AE - News, Updates and Discussions

[Deino]

why is ws19 considered better than ws21 ?

WS-21 is a slightly improved RD-93-based engine, WS-19 is a totally new and more modern one comparable to the WS-15 but smaller r and with less thrust.

 

[Deino]

If China wants to mass produce and sell J 35 in the international market she has to co opt other countries in the production and supply chain systems ...in the coming years there will be fierce competition between China and America in the international defence market ......it will be buyers market not sellers market anymore .

There‘s a difference between co-produce - aka Pakistan or other countries manufacture certain parts - or for local production!

 

[Hussain]

Based again on "trrust me brrother; I tell you!"??

Bro, you are an accomplished author, a tittle holder on this forum, making such comments doesn't suit you. Just ignore what you don't agree with and move on, let time prove procurement issues either way.

 

[JamD]

the other batch of J-10s is what im referring to.

In terms of J-35 production lines, the reality is the PAF will seek some form of workshare, when i talk about converting the JF-17 production line, i refer to a similar agreement, where China and Pakistan together produce a tailored variant and part of it is produced in Pakistan. If China will not do this, i guarantee you the PAF is not going to buy in and will happily go running to the Turks who will agree to such a share. The PAF is not going to let PAC die, it would be a strategic blunder and the JF-17 production line needs to be turned into something. An NGFA being built there is the only realistic and or viable alternative, worst case, perhaps if the PAF went in on Kizelelma, then maybe theyd be produced there, but its more likely that the J-35 or the TFX will be the next fighters to roll off the line at Kamra beyond the JF-17.

This is the reality.

This is certainly what the PAF wants. I do wonder if that's what they'll get. I would wager that the whole PFX thing is the third (and most likely) option for the JF-17 line being kept open. Not saying PFX will actually succeed (read my signature lol) but I am thinking that even the PAF isn't too hopeful of TFX or J-35 workshare. There's a certain level of hadharami at PAC Kamra that I don't know how was overcome with the JF-17. The Turks do not have the stomach for the danda/spoonfeeding that will be needed for a possible TFX workshare. I saw first hand what their attempts to start that came to.

Honestly, I would think perhaps China would like another production line - just to ramp up production. Couple of reasons:
1. PAC Kamra, AMF, are all Chinese designed and built anyway. There is stupid levels of commonality with production lines in China.
2. J-35s will sell like hot cakes and China will need them for themselves too.
3. China has experiencing doing workshare with PAC.

It would probably be structural.

 

[Hussain]

Mean while other than Tempest & F-35 & Indian options .......Back to J-35-AE

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"J-35A, with its domestically developed engine, represents an important addition to the PLA Air Force's fighter aircraft fleet.

Air Force officer Li Lanxing said that during test flights, pilots found the J-35A highly maneuverable, with excellent handling and user-friendly human-machine interaction, enabling full combat effectiveness."

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"Three J-35As have appeared to date, all with slight differences, making Joe doubtful that “they’re operational in any frontline capacity.” However, he believes the PLAAF may have received aircraft for initial operational testing and evaluation. Its current engines are WS21 turbofans, though the intended engine is the WS19..

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TurboFan-19" is a long-rumored new Chinese engine. It is similar to the name of "Taihang" and "Emei", and the name of "TurboFan-19" is "Huangshan". The target of the turbofan-19 is the F414 turbofan engine, which is larger than the European EJ200 engine in terms of maximum thrust...."

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J-35 Specs Unveiled: WS-19 ‘Huangshan’ Engine, 8 Missile Capacity

Recently, there has been a series of good news regarding the Fujian carrier and the J-35 carrier-based aircraft, suggesting that the J-35 carrier-based aircraft will be a standard configuration on future Fujian carrier. Recently, Hong Kong Wen Wei Po published specific performance parameters of...

www.china-arms.com

China unveils J-35A and other new fighters at Zhuhai Airshow

Chinese military officials have often used the Zhuhai Airshow to tell the world about new warplanes.

www.defensenews.com

1350km combat radius = without aerial refueling? would that assumption be right?
Secondly, what would be time on station?

anyone?

 

[Ak01]

This is certainly what the PAF wants. I do wonder if that's what they'll get. I would wager that the whole PFX thing is the third (and most likely) option for the JF-17 line being kept open. Not saying PFX will actually succeed (read my signature lol) but I am thinking that even the PAF isn't too hopeful of TFX or J-35 workshare. There's a certain level of hadharami at PAC Kamra that I don't know how was overcome with the JF-17. The Turks do not have the stomach for the danda/spoonfeeding that will be needed for a possible TFX workshare. I saw first hand what their attempts to start that came to.

Honestly, I would think perhaps China would like another production line - just to ramp up production. Couple of reasons:
1. PAC Kamra, AMF, are all Chinese designed and built anyway. There is stupid levels of commonality with production lines in China.
2. J-35s will sell like hot cakes and China will need them for themselves too.
3. China has experiencing doing workshare with PAC.

It would probably be structural.

agreed, well probably get sent airframes from China, have some portion of the assembly ourselves. JF-17v2.

I think even PFX is kind of a short term fix, it can only be so much. I think we discussed this before but i feel like PFX is what i expected as a block 4 but rebadged, how long can they sustain that? Realistically PAC/PAF will desperately seek a long term solution, they will have to move on with the times and transition to a facility producing new fighters. I agree that in terms of workshare, there probably wont be much, but in terms of production/assembly, its the only way PAC will survive is by receiving a license production agreement for either TFX or J-35. Its either the PAF puts its foot down or PAC dies.

If you remember originally when the CPEC SEZ nonsense was being setup, there was a plan to produce jointly a FGFA, PAC then setup their commercial entities (KAIL etc) so perhaps there was the element of forward thinking where they knew that theyd need to let the JF-17 die at some point, perhaps its just time for us to wait out and see what rolls off the line. I do think the TFX (and im sure you agree probably) is still a major frontrunner in the race, i dont think the PAF has actually gone all in on the J35 or signed for it, but rather, as we discussed, is using it as a means of placing pressure on Turkey to work out something with them. it just doesnt make sense, the PAF is certainly not getting their way with the Chinese and i assume is quite displeased with them, would be illogical for the force to place its eggs all in one basket, unless sidhus pockets were being lined, which wouldnt surprise me either

 

[Ak01]

And youthful the Turks will give Pakistan the same amount of price reduction like China? Even more so the Turkish fighter alone since built in Europe in much slammer numbers will be much more expensive (if it ever will be ready that soon).

As such you guys are funny … on the one side demanding it as soon as possible, in the best if not better configuration like China, to be built in Pakistan and best paid by China … just think about it and then tell me how likely this is.

Unffortunately youve missed the mark Andreas.

Chinese price reductions come with a billion other things, an initial Chinese price reduction will probably end up being more costly in the long run thanks to shady and unfair Chinese business practices. Where is PL-15 for JF-17? What about supply of components, from what i know, atleast one factory was having issues with their Chinese supplier.

Infact, the Turks would likely jump at an opportunity to get Pakistan onboard, after all, it reduces the unit cost of the aircraft. China doesnt need this, Turkey does, the PAF would likely order similar numbers, if not more than the TuAF seriously reducing the burden on any one customer.

"As such you guys are funny … on the one side demanding it as soon as possible, in the best if not better configuration like China, to be built in Pakistan and best paid by China … just think about it and then tell me how likely this is."

Maybe its past your bedtime but id love to see where i said any of this...

Though, if you think the PAF will go all in on the J35 without requesting modifications to meet their operational requirements then i don't know what to tell you. I also dont know what to say if you dont think that the PAF will not be seeking some sort of production share for the order they may place. They are not just going to buy them in flyaway condition, any order that comes, will include a production deal at Kamra. Mark my words.

 

[Oscar]

agreed, well probably get sent airframes from China, have some portion of the assembly ourselves. JF-17v2.

I think even PFX is kind of a short term fix, it can only be so much. I think we discussed this before but i feel like PFX is what i expected as a block 4 but rebadged, how long can they sustain that? Realistically PAC/PAF will desperately seek a long term solution, they will have to move on with the times and transition to a facility producing new fighters. I agree that in terms of workshare, there probably wont be much, but in terms of production/assembly, its the only way PAC will survive is by receiving a license production agreement for either TFX or J-35. Its either the PAF puts its foot down or PAC dies.

If you remember originally when the CPEC SEZ nonsense was being setup, there was a plan to produce jointly a FGFA, PAC then setup their commercial entities (KAIL etc) so perhaps there was the element of forward thinking where they knew that theyd need to let the JF-17 die at some point, perhaps its just time for us to wait out and see what rolls off the line. I do think the TFX (and im sure you agree probably) is still a major frontrunner in the race, i dont think the PAF has actually gone all in on the J35 or signed for it, but rather, as we discussed, is using it as a means of placing pressure on Turkey to work out something with them. it just doesnt make sense, the PAF is certainly not getting their way with the Chinese and i assume is quite displeased with them, would be illogical for the force to place its eggs all in one basket, unless sidhus pockets were being lined, which wouldnt surprise me either

There’s displeasure stemming from JF-17 as well - part of it was “junior partner” syndrome and part is “don’t take us for chumps - we still pay for the loans”

 

[Ak01]

There’s displeasure stemming from JF-17 as well - part of it was “junior partner” syndrome and part is “don’t take us for chumps - we still pay for the loans”

haha yeah thats what i was getting at, the JF-17 experience was an eye opener for them i take it, hence trying to push the Chinese aside with PFX. I forever wonder why Pakistan, Turkey and the GCC dont attempt to put together a 'Muslim MBDA', funded by the Arabs, developed by the Turks, Pakistanis and the South African engineers working at Edge etc

 

[Falcon26]

haha yeah thats what i was getting at, the JF-17 experience was an eye opener for them i take it, hence trying to push the Chinese aside with PFX. I forever wonder why Pakistan, Turkey and the GCC dont attempt to put together a 'Muslim MBDA', funded by the Arabs, developed by the Turks, Pakistanis and the South African engineers working at Edge etc

The GCC isn’t a monolith and are in fact bunch of spoiled whiny brats with no sense of wisdom or foresight. This is the GCC of the 1960s & 1970s. The grandsons are now in charge and they prefer partying in europe and America rather than pursing self-reliance.

 

[Michael]

IMO...the PAF wouldn't have bought J-10CEs if the J-35A had been available so soon.

In fact, for a time, there was a school of thought in the PAF that figured it'd be best to wait for next-gen and skip the J-10CE.

Clearly, at some point, the PAF AHQ got the memo that the J-35A wouldn't be available as early as they'd hope, and hence the J-10CE purchase.

This is an inappropriate point of view.
J-35 + J-10CE, that's an appropriate combat combination.
J-10CE + JF-17, that's another proper combat combination.
But, that does not mean that J-35+JF-17 is an appropriate combat combination.
The JF-17 is essentially a 3rd generation fighter. While CAC has upgraded it to a 4th gen fighter through various technologies, its inherent flaws dictate that it is very difficult to operate in concert with 5th gen fighters. ------ Fighter formations of a show or opinion nature are not part of this discussion.
Other than the J-10CE, the PAF has no other fighter that can operate in concert with the J-35.

the other batch of J-10s is what im referring to.

In terms of J-35 production lines, the reality is the PAF will seek some form of workshare, when i talk about converting the JF-17 production line, i refer to a similar agreement, where China and Pakistan together produce a tailored variant and part of it is produced in Pakistan. If China will not do this, i guarantee you the PAF is not going to buy in and will happily go running to the Turks who will agree to such a share. The PAF is not going to let PAC die, it would be a strategic blunder and the JF-17 production line needs to be turned into something. An NGFA being built there is the only realistic and or viable alternative, worst case, perhaps if the PAF went in on Kizelelma, then maybe theyd be produced there, but its more likely that the J-35 or the TFX will be the next fighters to roll off the line at Kamra beyond the JF-17.

This is the reality.

Your kind of thinking is dangerous! Whatever your agenda, please stop this rhetoric.
We know. China and Pakistan have very good relations, and Pakistan and Turkey have very good relations. But to threaten China because of this will only be counterproductive.
The Chinese have many virtues, but they do not include forgetting hatred! So, I hope the Pakistanis will not bring the grudge between China and Turkey on themselves. I don't talk about things between China and Turkey in PDF, so please don't ask me. I am just reminding my Pakistani friends not to get involved.

There is no possibility of Pakistan getting a production line for the J-35.
This conclusion has nothing to do with diplomatic relations. It is determined by Pakistan's industrial capacity.
China is now entering the “Industry 4.0” era. All the new large scale production lines are highly intelligent, and the new factory that SAC is building is also highly intelligent, and PAC's current capacity is still very far from it. Pakistan does not have the capacity to build such an intelligent factory.
PAC's production of JF-17 is a source of pride for Pakistan, but the J-35 program cannot be measured by that standard.

 

[guangdongt]

I would like to add that Pakistan has deep relations with both the United States and China, and it is impossible for China's most advanced fighter jet military production line to be exported. No one can guarantee confidentiality, this is a strategic security issue. Competition between China and the United States is inevitable today. Our country has only signed a military alliance with North Korea, which is still due to the Korean War between China and the United States in the 1950s. Pakistan cannot really leave the United States in the long run, which is in line with Pakistan's economic survival needs. It is a good thing for Pakistan to cooperate with Türkiye in production. A country has more technology sources to develop. We are not the United States, we do not pursue big sticks Carrot policy. Adhere to one's own position and interests. Do not interfere with the acquisition of technology by other countries.

 

[mythbuster]

I would like to add that Pakistan has deep relations with both the United States and China, and it is impossible for China's most advanced fighter jet military production line to be exported. No one can guarantee confidentiality, this is a strategic security issue. Competition between China and the United States is inevitable today. Our country has only signed a military alliance with North Korea, which is still due to the Korean War between China and the United States in the 1950s. Pakistan cannot really leave the United States in the long run, which is in line with Pakistan's economic survival needs. It is a good thing for Pakistan to cooperate with Türkiye in production. A country has more technology sources to develop. We are not the United States, we do not pursue big sticks Carrot policy. Adhere to one's own position and interests. Do not interfere with the acquisition of technology by other countries.

Deep relations are built on trust ... Americans and Pakistanis don't trust each other ......there statements are fig leaves to keep the decorum and Chinese govt knows that and encourages Pakistan to keep good working relations with US......China Pak relationship is on a different level ......don't get swayed by PDF posters ramblings , they are nobodies .....most of them are pretenders who want to look cool .

 

[Yasser76]

I would like to add that Pakistan has deep relations with both the United States and China, and it is impossible for China's most advanced fighter jet military production line to be exported. No one can guarantee confidentiality, this is a strategic security issue. Competition between China and the United States is inevitable today. Our country has only signed a military alliance with North Korea, which is still due to the Korean War between China and the United States in the 1950s. Pakistan cannot really leave the United States in the long run, which is in line with Pakistan's economic survival needs. It is a good thing for Pakistan to cooperate with Türkiye in production. A country has more technology sources to develop. We are not the United States, we do not pursue big sticks Carrot policy. Adhere to one's own position and interests. Do not interfere with the acquisition of technology by other countries.

Its true, we still have US contractors and airmen walking around some bases right?

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

The way Chinese production lines works, shifting workshare will only increase problems and delays. If China in one year can produce 200+ J16 and 200+ J20 along with J15, J10 and some others (not to mention drones) then what can Pakistani lines can add which China itself can't add more economically and with better timelines so (There might be an option with KAAN) definately J35 lines are not coming to Pakistan in any way.

Regarding PFX, I personally feel it like a further evolution of Block 3 similar to Gripen E/F with much more indigenous share and control.