PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Tomcats]

There seems to be some confusion as per timelines of the strikes. Both Indian and Pakistani strikes happened simultaneously as per video footage. As soon as our missiles started getting into the air, Indian missiles began launching towards our airbases.

 

[Tomcats]

I wonder how PAF will fair in protecting the bases/equipment.

cough TTP cough

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Spot on
India is already testing Ballistic based Hypersonics for anti ship role.
Their new LRAsHM is not an air breathing scramjet engine based but SRM based.
Pakistan has solid base with ballistics.Instead of opening new Pandora box of ramjet based supersonics,we should go for ballistic based Hypersonics .
I think Fatah is exactly an attempt to finally reach Hypersonic Point.

India has both of those projects going on. Pakistan should go for both. I don't see how you can suggest to ignore an entire area of missile development, this isn't a pick-and-choose situation I think each one will serve a specific use case.

Just look at how you ignored supersonic cruise missiles and then we are here today. Do you really want to get caught with your pants down because you made a knee-jerk decision to just ignore an entire area because you perceived it useless?

 

[MS Sandhu]

India has both of those projects going on. Pakistan should go for both. I don't see how you can suggest to ignore an entire area of missile development, this isn't a pick-and-choose situation I think each one will serve a specific use case.

Just look at how you ignored supersonic cruise missiles and then we are here today. Do you really want to get caught with your pants down because you made a knee-jerk decision to just ignore an entire area because you perceived it useless?

It's not about ignoring an area
It's about playing on your own strength
We are hardly able to evolve our ballistic program.Open another pandora box and you will get nowhere
US doesn't deploy Supersonic missiles.Don't they know the might of Supersonics?They know but they play on their own strength - the Stealth and they are masters in that field.
Even now,US is deploying Ballistic based Hypersonics.US-Army's LRHW is not an air breathing scramjet engine based but built on SRM fundamentals.
Given the legacy of missile technology in Pakistan, Ballistic Hypersonics are achieve able and scale able much easier than air breathing designs

 

[Rational Philosopher]

It's not about ignoring an area
It's about playing on your own strength
We are hardly able to evolve our ballistic program.Open another pandora box and you will get nowhere
US doesn't deploy Supersonic missiles.Don't they know the might of Supersonics?They know but they play on their own strength - the Stealth and they are masters in that field.
Even now,US is deploying Ballistic based Hypersonics.US-Army's LRHW is not an air breathing scramjet engine based but built on SRM fundamentals.
Given the legacy of missile technology in Pakistan, Ballistic Hypersonics are achieve able and scale able much easier than air breathing designs

The US is skipping straight to hypersonic cruise missile projects which are under development and has had technology demonstrators for them, I think comparing us with the US is flawed as the reason why it isn't a big need for them is because they have unmatched stealth penetration ability, they can drop munitions deep inside with little resistance.

Also our programs should run in parallel, ballistic program should continue developing, expanding and refining as is but ignoring high-speed cruise missiles will be a mistake, they allow us to penetrate defended areas for high value targets. BrahMos incident has proven high-speed cruise missiles are lethal.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I think indigenous solution should be worked on for this tier. We have C-UAS radars, we make manpads, we should get capabilities for 35mm (we already make ammo for it).

Rest is system integration. Add CUAS jammers and spoofers and you have a full spectrum system.

indigenous solution is always preferable but can we do it quickly and in numbers before next round with india get started? that is the main question here

 

[mosinjack]

Really insightful breakdown—thanks for putting this together. The induction of HQ-9B into both PAF and the Army definitely signals a shift toward layered and integrated air defense, moving beyond point defense strategies. The dual-loadout TELs and increased engagement range of the HQ-9B add serious flexibility. It'll be interesting to see how this shapes the regional defense dynamics, especially with S-400s on the other side and the growing importance of countermeasures like drones and EW systems. Pakistan’s move toward networked air defense seems like a logical evolution.

 

[Blain2]

Because there's no concrete satellite evidence to rely upon so this narrative doesn't really stick. There's bits and pieces of videos recorded by locals which are hard to tell what's really going on and the extent of damage.

In contrast there is pretty high quality footage of fixed targets inside several of our air bases being hit.

Your second sentence proves my point. Pakistani munitions got through as did the UAVs despite India's S-400 anchored air defenses. There is far too much evidence that suggests that various air bases on the Indian side were hit (ppl have posted pictures/videos of smoke billowing out of those sites). Unless Indians are in the habit of lighting up their own facilities and that too during a shooting war with Pakistan, there has to be some credence that our kinetic actions caused damage. This proves the point that their S-400 and associated systems failed to interdict successfully.

Similarly, Pakistan's AD gaps were known on account of the limited batteries of HQ-9 being inducted. Firing off stand-off munitions was going to definitely cause some damage in such a scenario.

 

[Corax]

Absolutely, good call. OTOH, the value of working with the others (Brazil, Poland, Czech, Hungary) is that it gets Pakistan into other places. We can create a pathway for R&D collaboration as well as getting their industrial expertise and systems into Pakistan. We should've called it out clearly, but there was a dual-economic intent the idea as well. But from a purely military supply PoV, yeah, outsourcing to China is a good idea, but it should be done in concert with others. Never a bad idea to maintain a diverse supplier pool.

The strategic depth issue is tough to navigate as India's SSCMs (and later HSCMs) will increase in range as well. The PAF needs to think more along the lines of dispersal ops, so ensuring future fighters can operate from our motorways and/or develop specially designed dispersal-centric UCAVs will be key.


It's less to do with HQ-9BE in itself and more with the fact that Pakistan's GBADS was still a work in progress by the time of the conflict.

IIRC, the PAF SAM acquisitions started with ACM Babar, so a lead time of at most three years. AHQ started with the long-range, high-altitude coverages, but its work on the lower altitude, shorter-range area was not as well built (relative to high-altitude/long-range). We go from HQ-9BE to Spada 2000 Plus -- there was a big gap.

I would NOT pin this on negligence on the PAF's part; only ONE other country dealt with supersonic missiles, and NO ONE dealt with them with the lack of strategic depth we had.

There are times when you run into bad luck and this was one of them. Good thing it was a limited conflict; Pakistan can now adapt, and (as we get into episode 2), it has very valuable real-world data on the BrahMos.

We discuss this in Ep 2, but the doors will open and Pakistan is in a position to adapt defensively.

All that said, there is a more policy level question of whether the delay between May 7th and May 10th was correct. There are now debates (e.g., Ejaz Haider) on whether the right next step would've been to escalate right after or during the IAF strikes on May 7th instead of waiting and calling for diplomacy (which indirectly gave India the license to keep attacking Pakistan).

Given the CJCSC's statements recently, I think in any future conflict, Pakistan will escalate tit-for-tat to Indian strikes, and not overtly call for diplomacy any more.

In my view, what's needed is a joint command and control structure of IADS assets under the auspices of the army and air force, integrating all available sensors, C4I, and kinetic assets so that a multi layered response can be initiated with a complete picture. This would not only improve defensive capability against incoming threats, but also improve offensive efficacy.

 

[Goenitz]

People are questioning HQ-9 capabilities but not paying attention to Pakistan striking Indian targets at will under the protection of S-400. PAF/PA hit more sites/more targets than the Indians. What does that tell one about the efficacy of S-400?
It goes without saying that Pakistan needs more batteries.

The recent Ukrainian kamikaze drone attacks on Russian strategic bombers is something to keep in mind. However, in this case, the drones were launched from close by so a covert operation.

TTP and BLA.. RAW can hire them. They are at least creating a norm by attacking in KPK (at least on one occasion by ISPR)... so if PAF assets are damaged, then it will not be a shock at least.

 

[hussain0216]

You have to assume at this point, India is very actively training her terrorist proxies to carry out such a drone attack on Pakistan about now ... I wonder how PAF will fair in protecting the bases/equipment.

Yep, you have to consider

TTP from Afghanistan has attempted to fly basic drones over the border to attack, they have killed civilians

It doesn't take much to offer them more money and better drones to carry out attacks, we need to be on our toes with a empowered iSI to take the fight to our enemies

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Establishment linked Twitter account so probably has some truth to it:

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[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Establishment linked Twitter account so probably has some truth to it:

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I think we should also buy hisar-O with these korkut system to defend against future brahmos, scalp and drone attacks

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I think we should also buy hisar-O with these korkut system to defend against future brahmos, scalp and drone attacks

Several systems in that category will be assessed most likely and chosen based on what's most feasible

 

[Vkdindian1]

Your second sentence proves my point. Pakistani munitions got through as did the UAVs despite India's S-400 anchored air defenses. There is far too much evidence that suggests that various air bases on the Indian side were hit (ppl have posted pictures/videos of smoke billowing out of those sites). Unless Indians are in the habit of lighting up their own facilities and that too during a shooting war with Pakistan, there has to be some credence that our kinetic actions caused damage. This proves the point that their S-400 and associated systems failed to interdict successfully.

Similarly, Pakistan's AD gaps were known on account of the limited batteries of HQ-9 being inducted. Firing off stand-off munitions was going to definitely cause some damage in such a scenario.

No major installation was successfully hit by Pakistan. All the blast and smoke was from initial impact of the weapons fired by Pakistan.

Similar smoke and blast effects were seen at Sargodha where the runway was struck successfully by the IAF. Runway has nothing to catch fire and cause smoke but there was both of them in ample quantity. Only Nur Khan had fire raging for many hours but rest all were targets with nothing to cause secondary blast and fire, which were captured from ground.

So a Fatah falling in an open area or even a non critical building is not a successful strike. Damage to buildings could have been proven the very next day which wasn’t done. And please don’t say that Paksiatn doesn’t have its own BDA. There are more than enough entities that can provide satellite pictures for money. I am sure that, this was done but not publicised due to obvious reasons.

A bomb or a missile dropping inside an airbase isn’t a successful strike. Its accuracy to strike something critical makes it successful. Either the weapons fired didn’t have the desired accuracy or the most critical one’s were intercepted by Indian AD.

Considering that PAF fired more ordnance in two days than that fired in entire 1965 war means a lot. Considering that there is nothing to show as proof means a lot.

It’s high time Think Tank level of posters start accepting this fact and stop relying on videos made on ground as a proof.