PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Quwa]

I believe the leadership was not expecting the full breath of the attacks and was focused on a LoC focused engagement.
The entire episode left the leadership rattled from a "this escalated quickly" aspect.

The level of saturation used was bound to let something in the door - AD has and is Pakistan's weakest link that stems from dogmatic thinking by boomers all the way to Gen X.


Just 15-16 years ago you had full bird army tankers claiming they dont need AD beyond Anza's because "The F-16s will take care of everything". CONOPS were from the 1960s even after the mauling they took at Longewalla.

With all the criticism one can have for the current CAS, he was the one who decided to steward a huge expansion of the PAF's GBADS into air defence. Maybe it does take a 'bull in the China shop' (pun semi-intended) to break through institutional inertia.

 

[MastanKhan]

I believe the leadership was not expecting the full breath of the attacks and was focused on a LoC focused engagement.
The entire episode left the leadership rattled from a "this escalated quickly" aspect.

The level of saturation used was bound to let something in the door - AD has and is Pakistan's weakest link that stems from dogmatic thinking by boomers all the way to Gen X.


Just 15-16 years ago you had full bird army tankers claiming they dont need AD beyond Anza's because "The F-16s will take care of everything". CONOPS were from the 1960s even after the mauling they took at Longewalla.

Hi,

A lack of knowledge---a lack of exposure to what was happening in the rest of the world---a lack of reading material about weapons and technology---.

Not even full birds but army Generals as well---.

It was a power thing---. If the SA missiles were handed over to the army and army made incharge instead of the air force---the acceptance would have been comparatively easier---.

 

[SD 10]

I believe the leadership was not expecting the full breath of the attacks and was focused on a LoC focused engagement.
The entire episode left the leadership rattled from a "this escalated quickly" aspect.

The level of saturation used was bound to let something in the door - AD has and is Pakistan's weakest link that stems from dogmatic thinking by boomers all the way to Gen X.


Just 15-16 years ago you had full bird army tankers claiming they dont need AD beyond Anza's because "The F-16s will take care of everything". CONOPS were from the 1960s even after the mauling they took at Longewalla.

I am a layman but its a well establish fact that india will always seek to expand the conflict. Containing the conflict around loc doesn't benefit them! Why the leadership didnt expect it is crazy?

 

[rafale]

Not exactly when it comes to Bholari.
It was actually luck and Brahmos extremely poor turning radius that saved the asset damage.

Same goes for Nur Khan.

Saturation has its impacts but overall the amount of effort they put in with rather decent textbook attack profiles should have gotten them more returns.

Unfortunately, they have proof - Pakistanis have each other’s congratulations at best for now.

What was the PAF thinking keeping the asset in a non hardended shelter during active combat?

Further, I believe the BDA satellite proof is one of the off ramps that India had as per sources. PAF and Pakistan will no longer showcase any damages on Indian side and Indians get to have it ".....out of their system...." and call it a day.

If you lost 6 of your top line jets, you too would be looking for a face saving.

This wasn't an actual war, but more like a political play for Modi and his terrorist Hindutva ideology.

After all, war is an extension of politics by other means........

 

[Psyko70]

Can we discuss the fact that pl15 is 300 km means its SAM variant in 125km NEZ range sam is possible ?

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I believe the leadership was not expecting the full breath of the attacks and was focused on a LoC focused engagement.
The entire episode left the leadership rattled from a "this escalated quickly" aspect.

The level of saturation used was bound to let something in the door - AD has and is Pakistan's weakest link that stems from dogmatic thinking by boomers all the way to Gen X.


Just 15-16 years ago you had full bird army tankers claiming they dont need AD beyond Anza's because "The F-16s will take care of everything". CONOPS were from the 1960s even after the mauling they took at Longewalla.

And people here after getting excited over some successes in a couple skirmishes think we have geniuses in control...

Pakistan - for the most part - still does not have a competent ecosystem that produces intelligent thinkers at NATO-level. A lot of boomer lazy ignorance which is an extension of our society.

Few successes should not build unrealistic expectations, there's a never ending list of reforms needed among the strategic officer culture.

 

[rafale]

I believe the leadership was not expecting the full breath of the attacks and was focused on a LoC focused engagement.
The entire episode left the leadership rattled from a "this escalated quickly" aspect.

The level of saturation used was bound to let something in the door - AD has and is Pakistan's weakest link that stems from dogmatic thinking by boomers all the way to Gen X.


Just 15-16 years ago you had full bird army tankers claiming they dont need AD beyond Anza's because "The F-16s will take care of everything". CONOPS were from the 1960s even after the mauling they took at Longewalla.

@Oscar

Any one would be rattled by it Oscar.

India launched attacks on "terrorist camps" because they said we are not at war so no military targets hit

Pakistan shoots down their 6 jets which attacked Pakistan.

Could have stopped there. But local Indian media had already reported multiple Indian jets shot down in their initial frenzy thinking it was Pakistani jets shot down.

Embarrassment all over.

So why India would go for military assets then? Because they were desperate to redeem what ever was left of their fake superpower mentality. Sure, saturation worked and caused damages, could have been a lot worse. So any one would be surprised by where this war is headed.

Good thing is that PAF and Pakistan will learn faster and quicker. One lesson out of this is that PAF needs enhanced AD. No questions asked, and considering the past 5 years procurement and speed, they will get it.

Cannot say the same for Indians. They seem to not be learning.

Also, didn't Israeli famed Iron Dome fail as well? How much billions did the US tax payers pay for that? No AD is impregnable, but the valuable lesson for Pakistan from this short skirmish is to procure and make ready a better AD

It also proves that with the vile hindus, you cannot expected a limited strikes like in 2019, next time an attack by India means a full out war. So better be on top of that rather than assuming what the next escalation ladder should be. India has shown their intents and desperation clearly.......which brings us back to day one....PAF should have smashed more of their jets so they had less to carry the SCALPs and Brahmos as they did later......

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I think the lack of knowledge is truth. Once like a decade ago or even before that I remember Army guy telling me we dont need AD because to shoot down one aircraft 10s of missiles like Anza are fired. When he said Anza and compared to SHORAD, medium range & long range are all same in contrast, I came to conclusion that the lack of knowledge is the problem. Being in armed forces doesnt attribute to knowing all the factions of military arsenals.

This is honestly scary. Even armchair generals on forums onlines are not this stupid just to be honest.

There is very obvious a quality standard issue in the officer class, training is probably subpar and largely outdated and highly likely they treat the military as some personal club.

These are the only realistic conclusions one can draw of the army looking inside.

 

[Psyko70]

@Oscar

Any one would be rattled by it Oscar.

India launched attacks on "terrorist camps" because they said we are not at war so no military targets hit

Pakistan shoots down their 6 jets which attacked Pakistan.

Could have stopped there. But local Indian media had already reported multiple Indian jets shot down in their initial frenzy thinking it was Pakistani jets shot down.

Embarrassment all over.

So why India would go for military assets then? Because they were desperate to redeem what ever was left of their fake superpower mentality. Sure, saturation worked and caused damages, could have been a lot worse. So any one would be surprised by where this war is headed.

Good thing is that PAF and Pakistan will learn faster and quicker. One lesson out of this is that PAF needs enhanced AD. No questions asked, and considering the past 5 years procurement and speed, they will get it.

Cannot say the same for Indians. They seem to not be learning.

Also, didn't Israeli famed Iron Dome fail as well? How much billions did the US tax payers pay for that? No AD is impregnable, but the valuable lesson for Pakistan from this short skirmish is to procure and make ready a better AD

It also proves that with the vile hindus, you cannot expected a limited strikes like in 2019, next time an attack by India means a full out war. So better be on top of that rather than assuming what the next escalation ladder should be. India has shown their intents and desperation clearly.......which brings us back to day one....PAF should have smashed more of their jets so they had less to carry the SCALPs and Brahmos as they did later......

Hello,

Iron dome didn't fail it was last level of defense in layered defenses (Arrow, Thaad, David sling. I think Israeli's did well and it also gives lesson that number of missile stockpiles is the issue. Pakistan cannot stock as much missiles as Israeli's because of funding via uncle SAM.

I think Underground bases is the solution along with Umbrella layered defenses. Even AA guns as the last resort.

 

[Psyko70]

I think the lack of knowledge is truth. Once like a decade ago or even before that I remember Army guy telling me we dont need AD because to shoot down one aircraft 10s of missiles like Anza are fired. When he said Anza and compared to SHORAD, medium range & long range are all same in contrast, I came to conclusion that the lack of knowledge is the problem. Being in armed forces doesnt attribute to knowing all the factions of military arsenals. However, I also believe that not all have to have knowledge in all aspects. It is the AD wing of armed forces to know about it. Now the same army slowly with world conflict studies is adding arsenal like HQ9. Slowly our military realizes the value of all types of systems. Cant just rely on airforce.

@Rationalist

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I think the lack of knowledge is truth. Once like a decade ago or even before that I remember Army guy telling me we dont need AD because to shoot down one aircraft 10s of missiles like Anza are fired. When he said Anza and compared to SHORAD, medium range & long range are all same in contrast, I came to conclusion that the lack of knowledge is the problem. Being in armed forces doesnt attribute to knowing all the factions of military arsenals. However, I also believe that not all have to have knowledge in all aspects. It is the AD wing of armed forces to know about it. Now the same army slowly with world conflict studies is adding arsenal like HQ9. Slowly our military realizes the value of all types of systems. Cant just rely on airforce.

@Rationalist

I believe they have a very strong lazy boomer mindset, sort of like villager mentality. They refuse to acknowledge the rapid evolution of modern warfare always changing. It might be their army course hasn't been changed much to match the international standard of today's era, this is why many still think from the perspective of fighting 1980's type of warfare.

 

[Psyko70]

This is honestly scary. Even armchair generals on forums onlines are not this stupid just to be honest.

There is very obvious a quality standard issue in the officer class, training is probably subpar and largely outdated and highly likely they treat the military as some personal club.

These are the only realistic conclusions one can draw of the army looking inside.

There is no such thing as armchair generals. In this forum its all armchair technicians knowing technical value of systems. generals are strategists. Here in forum all of us are like "Attack Attack, why didnt we Attack this and that".

Its not quality standard issue its more like over all strategical understanding of what is needed. When we didnt have advanced AD we still had HQ2 but PAF was defending the skies. As soon as missile defense problem arose our forces started adopting to it. Also initially there werent good systems Pakistan was indeed looking for internationally. US didnt provide and china in early 2000s was still developing for its own military.

 

[Psyko70]

I believe they have a very strong lazy boomer mindset, sort of like villager mentality. They refuse to acknowledge the rapid evolution of modern warfare always changing. It might be their army course hasn't been changed much to match the international standard of today's era, this is why many still think from the perspective of fighting 1980's type of warfare.

Could be. But in military inc oxford book I came to realize Pak army had some good thinking as well. for example, night vision was near to low thing in Pak-Indo scenario. But still most of our modern tanks from type 85, al khalid, t80 all had thermal night vision sights and indian army t72 didnt even had them in late 98 to early 2000s.

thermal sights play great role.

 

[S.Y.A]

This is honestly scary. Even armchair generals on forums onlines are not this stupid just to be honest.

There is very obvious a quality standard issue in the officer class, training is probably subpar and largely outdated and highly likely they treat the military as some personal club.

These are the only realistic conclusions one can draw of the army looking inside.

the issue lies in the doctrine. or the lack of one.

paksitan thinks that any war with india will last only 15 days and then there will be a ceasefire and back to status quo. there is nothing in that doctrine about winning the war. its just about surviving long enough for the world powers to jump in. or if our capability is significantly degraded, we will start rattling the nuclear saber. dont know if the generals have the appetite to use them.

this is a defeatist mentality right from the beginning in the face of an enemy that may potentially want to wipe you out, especially after the trainings and guidance they receive from israelis.

this thinking, thus, affects all war plans and appetite for escalation. our forces are not winners. they just seek to maintain the status quo. there is no grand strategy. there is no long-term plan.

 

[S.Y.A]

Could be. But in military inc oxford book I came to realize Pak army had some good thinking as well. for example, night vision was near to low thing in Pak-Indo scenario. But still most of our modern tanks from type 85, al khalid, t80 all had thermal night vision sights and indian army t72 didnt even had them in late 98 to early 2000s.

thermal sights play great role.

this is all good at tactical level. not at a strategic one.