Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

Yasser76 said:
With our forces now stationed in Saudi in what could well become a permanent deployment with the very likley addition of Qatar soon, it means there is a massive requirement for new planes.

Mirages can maybe continue as cruise missile carriers but we need to replace most of them now. JF-17 Block 1 may also need to go.

J-10C
JF-17C
F-16 A/B/C/D

All of the above are our only real viable assets for frontline in any confrontation with India or Israel, but combined that above fleet is only 120-130 aircraft.

Mirages, JF-17A and F-7PG now represent around 300 odd planes.

Now considering part of PAF may take an active role in Middle East for the foreseeable future something needs to be done regarding our spear tip units (J-10C, JF-17C and F-16s)

At one point if we had 20 odd J-10Cs flying escort for Iran and 20 odd JF-17Cs in Saudi at the same time there may have been a time no AESA equipped planes were in Pakistan!!!!

I exagerate but not by much. Just point out we have very high quality kit and equipment and the Israelis would have been fools to take us on, but the numbers are looking dangerously low for us outside of spear tip units
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agree sir. no on can deny this fact. we need numbers next gen train men for future . if we really are in KSA and QATAR the we really need. amassiv foce new equipment local plus foreign buy plus new while infrastructure may be new doctrines according to the news..
if KSA and Qatar cover defence expenses then it wnt be a big problem..lets see what happen and what our leaders are thinking to deal with this challenge
 
maxpane said:
agree sir. no on can deny this fact. we need numbers next gen train men for future . if we really are in KSA and QATAR the we really need. amassiv foce new equipment local plus foreign buy plus new while infrastructure may be new doctrines according to the news..
if KSA and Qatar cover defence expenses then it wnt be a big problem..lets see what happen and what our leaders are thinking to deal with this challenge
Click to expand...

Yes, in fact I would go so far as to say PAF needs expansion. 16 Fighter Sqds will no longer cut it if our commitments in Saudi and possibly Qatar are permanent. One token Sqd in each country wont cut it, we will need a wing (2 Sqds minimum) in each host country.

That is 4 Sqds extra we need. Now also remember these pilots and planes need to be rotated back.

All of this adds up. Money may not be an issue now if Saudi/Qatar fund it, but question is how do we get that many planes in service in next few years? What type will they be (China and US may be reluctant for J-35s stationed in that area). How do expand Pak based facilities to handle this, how do we train enough pilots?

New order in Middle East will actually mean new challenges for PAF. Never since Pakistan was created have we seen PAF so actively involved in this area
 
Yasser76 said:
Yes, in fact I would go so far as to say PAF needs expansion. 16 Fighter Sqds will no longer cut it if our commitments in Saudi and possibly Qatar are permanent. One token Sqd in each country wont cut it, we will need a wing (2 Sqds minimum) in each host country.

That is 4 Sqds extra we need. Now also remember these pilots and planes need to be rotated back.

All of this adds up. Money may not be an issue now if Saudi/Qatar fund it, but question is how do we get that many planes in service in next few years? What type will they be (China and US may be reluctant for J-35s stationed in that area). How do expand Pak based facilities to handle this, how do we train enough pilots?

New order in Middle East will actually mean new challenges for PAF. Never since Pakistan was created have we seen PAF so actively involved in this area
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thats a huge challenge. am not an expert but my here are my thoughts on it.
KSA and Qatar will buy usa and western plus turkiye jets to make them happy without disturbing them. thats just ine layer
second layer consist on j 35 pfx jf 17 with Pakistani plannners with full freedom.Chinese radars local radars air defence etc. they are going to be free to challenge israel. i think usa wants a third party which could challenge israel as it cant do it iself.
for shirt term re hired pilots which are retired and train them.
for near future increase cadets num according to the need.
if we play right card we can create and stable our own derlfence industry.
 
maxpane said:
thats a huge challenge. am not an expert but my here are my thoughts on it.
KSA and Qatar will buy usa and western plus turkiye jets to make them happy without disturbing them. thats just ine layer
second layer consist on j 35 pfx jf 17 with Pakistani plannners with full freedom.Chinese radars local radars air defence etc. they are going to be free to challenge israel. i think usa wants a third party which could challenge israel as it cant do it iself.
for shirt term re hired pilots which are retired and train them.
for near future increase cadets num according to the need.
if we play right card we can create and stable our own derlfence industry.
Click to expand...


Yes, good ideas, a lot of variables in this, but short term maybe J-10C can be good enough along with KJ-500?
Unsure Western jets are the solution, the whole point of PAF going there is our capability and ecosystem, which is Pakistani/Chinese. GCC have enough western jets and we know there are limits on them regarding radar and missiles. Also remember Arabs now have new respect for Chinese weapons after May 2025

In next 2-3 years what is possible is we create a force dedicated to Saudi/Qatari defence

100 J-10Cs and 8 KJ-500s. This lets us have 36 J-10Cs in Saudi, 36 in Qatar and 28 in reserve for maintenence rotation
3 KJ-500 in Saudi and 3 KJ-500 in Qatar means one in the air 24/7 over both countries, with 2 spare for rotation/reserve to keep airframe fatigue down
Also remember we will need to expand transport and refuller fleet a lot. Right now 20 c-130s and 4 il-76s are nowhere near enough considering our possible future equipments and RSAF tankers not compatible and QEAF does not have any. This will require investment and also we will need to expand transport fleet.
I would add maybe 12 Y-20 tankers and maybe 12 C-390s

All in all you are looking at a massive expansion and massive investment, but this is not beyond the realms of possibility if we have Saudi/Qatari money. In fact I would argue over last 10 years Pakistan Navy has achieved or about to achieve this.

10 years ago we had 6 old Type-21s and 4 average F-22s, 2 very old Agosta 70s and 3 Agosta 90Bs and 8 odd P-3Cs. Now look what PN has added

8 054A/Baburs, 8 Hangors, 4 Yarmooks and 4 ATR-72MPA and 10 Sea Sultan MPA

PN has not only doubled in size on sea, under sea and in the air, but also gone one generation up. If PN can do this, PAF is more then capable of doing it. Let us not forget in 2019, in 2025 and now in Iran-US, it has been PAF that has been at the very forefront and it any confrontation with Israel it will not be Army or Navy but PAF.

PAF needs to radically change. Challenge has now gone way beyond India. When those 20 J-10C pilots went up into Iran along with the Erieye crew you can bet they were briefed on the F-35, the F-16I and the F-15I. You can also bet that was not the last briefing PAF will do on the IDFAF.....
 
Yasser76 said:
Yes, good ideas, a lot of variables in this, but short term maybe J-10C can be good enough along with KJ-500?
Unsure Western jets are the solution, the whole point of PAF going there is our capability and ecosystem, which is Pakistani/Chinese. GCC have enough western jets and we know there are limits on them regarding radar and missiles. Also remember Arabs now have new respect for Chinese weapons after May 2025

In next 2-3 years what is possible is we create a force dedicated to Saudi/Qatari defence

100 J-10Cs and 8 KJ-500s. This lets us have 36 J-10Cs in Saudi, 36 in Qatar and 28 in reserve for maintenence rotation
3 KJ-500 in Saudi and 3 KJ-500 in Qatar means one in the air 24/7 over both countries, with 2 spare for rotation/reserve to keep airframe fatigue down
Also remember we will need to expand transport and refuller fleet a lot. Right now 20 c-130s and 4 il-76s are nowhere near enough considering our possible future equipments and RSAF tankers not compatible and QEAF does not have any. This will require investment and also we will need to expand transport fleet.
I would add maybe 12 Y-20 tankers and maybe 12 C-390s

All in all you are looking at a massive expansion and massive investment, but this is not beyond the realms of possibility if we have Saudi/Qatari money. In fact I would argue over last 10 years Pakistan Navy has achieved or about to achieve this.

10 years ago we had 6 old Type-21s and 4 average F-22s, 2 very old Agosta 70s and 3 Agosta 90Bs and 8 odd P-3Cs. Now look what PN has added

8 054A/Baburs, 8 Hangors, 4 Yarmooks and 4 ATR-72MPA and 10 Sea Sultan MPA

PN has not only doubled in size on sea, under sea and in the air, but also gone one generation up. If PN can do this, PAF is more then capable of doing it. Let us not forget in 2019, in 2025 and now in Iran-US, it has been PAF that has been at the very forefront and it any confrontation with Israel it will not be Army or Navy but PAF.

PAF needs to radically change. Challenge has now gone way beyond India. When those 20 J-10C pilots went up into Iran along with the Erieye crew you can bet they were briefed on the F-35, the F-16I and the F-15I. You can also bet that was not the last briefing PAF will do on the IDFAF.....
Click to expand...
very well articulated an comprehensive post. sir you ahve discuss every possible possibilities. excelelnt post
 
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Yasser76 said:
Yes, good ideas, a lot of variables in this, but short term maybe J-10C can be good enough along with KJ-500?
Unsure Western jets are the solution, the whole point of PAF going there is our capability and ecosystem, which is Pakistani/Chinese. GCC have enough western jets and we know there are limits on them regarding radar and missiles. Also remember Arabs now have new respect for Chinese weapons after May 2025

In next 2-3 years what is possible is we create a force dedicated to Saudi/Qatari defence

100 J-10Cs and 8 KJ-500s. This lets us have 36 J-10Cs in Saudi, 36 in Qatar and 28 in reserve for maintenence rotation
3 KJ-500 in Saudi and 3 KJ-500 in Qatar means one in the air 24/7 over both countries, with 2 spare for rotation/reserve to keep airframe fatigue down
Also remember we will need to expand transport and refuller fleet a lot. Right now 20 c-130s and 4 il-76s are nowhere near enough considering our possible future equipments and RSAF tankers not compatible and QEAF does not have any. This will require investment and also we will need to expand transport fleet.
I would add maybe 12 Y-20 tankers and maybe 12 C-390s

All in all you are looking at a massive expansion and massive investment, but this is not beyond the realms of possibility if we have Saudi/Qatari money. In fact I would argue over last 10 years Pakistan Navy has achieved or about to achieve this.

10 years ago we had 6 old Type-21s and 4 average F-22s, 2 very old Agosta 70s and 3 Agosta 90Bs and 8 odd P-3Cs. Now look what PN has added

8 054A/Baburs, 8 Hangors, 4 Yarmooks and 4 ATR-72MPA and 10 Sea Sultan MPA

PN has not only doubled in size on sea, under sea and in the air, but also gone one generation up. If PN can do this, PAF is more then capable of doing it. Let us not forget in 2019, in 2025 and now in Iran-US, it has been PAF that has been at the very forefront and it any confrontation with Israel it will not be Army or Navy but PAF.

PAF needs to radically change. Challenge has now gone way beyond India. When those 20 J-10C pilots went up into Iran along with the Erieye crew you can bet they were briefed on the F-35, the F-16I and the F-15I. You can also bet that was not the last briefing PAF will do on the IDFAF.....
Click to expand...

I have always mandated that the PAF should effectively become the lead service in Pakistan and needs to become much larger than what it has been historically.

What we are witnessing is that realisation itself now come to Pakistan's leaders themselves in real-time, as the PAF now will get over stretched very soon very quickly as it was always given the absolute bare minimum to fight a limited short war with India. Iran has claimed that over $250billion of damage was done, and all that was done by airpower. That is how significant airpower can be on imposing a "cost" on the enemy.

If the Saudi's and Qataris want Pakistan to help defend them, they need to directly pay for that capitilisation, it can't loans, or "balance support".

Let's see what happens.
 
Last edited:
Ali_Baba said:
I have always mandated that the PAF should effectively become the lead service in Pakistan and needs to become much larger than what it has been historically.

What we are witnessing is that realisation itself now come to Pakistan's leaders themselves in real-time, as the PAF now will get over stretched very soon very quickly as it was always given the absolute bare minimum to fight a limited short war with India. Iran has claimed that over $250billion of damage was done, and all that was done by airpower. That is how significant airpower can be on imposing a "cost" on the enemy.

If the Saudi's and Qataris want Pakistan to help defend them, they need to directly pay for that capitilisation, it can't loans, or "balance support".

Let's see what happens.
Click to expand...

100% agree, air power now seems to be our go to response in any conflict. PAF is world standard, it needs to become world leading. We have the manpower, the training, the experiance and much of the equipment, but we need to go up a level in terms of technology.

The level where we come only behind China and USAF. That is where we need to be, and that is a huge task
 
Yasser76 said:
Yes, good ideas, a lot of variables in this, but short term maybe J-10C can be good enough along with KJ-500?
Unsure Western jets are the solution, the whole point of PAF going there is our capability and ecosystem, which is Pakistani/Chinese. GCC have enough western jets and we know there are limits on them regarding radar and missiles. Also remember Arabs now have new respect for Chinese weapons after May 2025

In next 2-3 years what is possible is we create a force dedicated to Saudi/Qatari defence

100 J-10Cs and 8 KJ-500s. This lets us have 36 J-10Cs in Saudi, 36 in Qatar and 28 in reserve for maintenence rotation
3 KJ-500 in Saudi and 3 KJ-500 in Qatar means one in the air 24/7 over both countries, with 2 spare for rotation/reserve to keep airframe fatigue down
Also remember we will need to expand transport and refuller fleet a lot. Right now 20 c-130s and 4 il-76s are nowhere near enough considering our possible future equipments and RSAF tankers not compatible and QEAF does not have any. This will require investment and also we will need to expand transport fleet.
I would add maybe 12 Y-20 tankers and maybe 12 C-390s

All in all you are looking at a massive expansion and massive investment, but this is not beyond the realms of possibility if we have Saudi/Qatari money. In fact I would argue over last 10 years Pakistan Navy has achieved or about to achieve this.

10 years ago we had 6 old Type-21s and 4 average F-22s, 2 very old Agosta 70s and 3 Agosta 90Bs and 8 odd P-3Cs. Now look what PN has added

8 054A/Baburs, 8 Hangors, 4 Yarmooks and 4 ATR-72MPA and 10 Sea Sultan MPA

PN has not only doubled in size on sea, under sea and in the air, but also gone one generation up. If PN can do this, PAF is more then capable of doing it. Let us not forget in 2019, in 2025 and now in Iran-US, it has been PAF that has been at the very forefront and it any confrontation with Israel it will not be Army or Navy but PAF.

PAF needs to radically change. Challenge has now gone way beyond India. When those 20 J-10C pilots went up into Iran along with the Erieye crew you can bet they were briefed on the F-35, the F-16I and the F-15I. You can also bet that was not the last briefing PAF will do on the IDFAF.....
Click to expand...

unless someone can find me serial 22-121 we have the original grey camo 6 x J10CP + 14 x Green camo J10CP

total 20 units and I have not idea and probably neither PAF too why we still haven't got the remaining 36 units its been 4 years

so if we sent all 20 units to Iran that would be less likely

JF17 lock 3 mix + J10CP maybe but we seriously need more J10CP its a battle proven platform
 
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