Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[puttputt]

AVIC will not want to waste engineers on this type of project when it can use those same people to carry forward the work on their 6th gen platforms and all their new UCAVS. Highly skilled and trained aviation engineering time is very precious resource, I can't see them wanting to waste it on PFX as there is nothing in it for them. Their value is more to them that their salary/consultancy cost time ..

That and they'll likely tell us to get the J-10CE.

 

[Ak01]

That and they'll likely tell us to get the J-10CE.

could always bring someone else in

 

[puttputt]

AVIC will not want to waste engineers on this type of project when it can use those same people to carry forward the work on their 6th gen platforms and all their new UCAVS. Highly skilled and trained aviation engineering time is very precious resource, I can't see them wanting to waste it on PFX as there is nothing in it for them. Their value is more to them that their salary/consultancy cost time ..

could always bring someone else in

Yep and that points to a bigger point...there are companies and people out there who'd be willing to help us with original design and development.

The key, however, is that AHQ must break out of the "turnkey mentality" of having the vendor do everything (CATIC and JF-17) and shift to something closer to the PN mentality of managing different vendors toward a common goal (e.g., JCF, Sea Sultan, SWATS, etc.).

So, instead of "first-layer" OEMs, you're now going to work with the "second" and "third" layer guys who'd feed into the "first-layer OEM's" projects. This is where NASTP would need to "get good" (i.e., managing the work and at the same time learning). TAI's been doing this with the Hurkus, Hurjet, and KAAN by bringing in overseas 2nd and 3rd layer entities to help them, but we can't overstate the importance of the lead OEM (NASTP) not messing things up.

That said, there are companies out there that know how to help, e.g., Airbus DS Spain, Paramount Group, Baykar Group, Diamond, etc., to varying degrees. Ultimately, when relying on 2nd/3rd group OEMs, you're going to need to build your own in-house capacity to leverage what they know and fill in where they don't. One option for the latter could be to directly contract the experts from the 1st tier OEMs, as TAI had done with BAE.

 

[Ak01]

Yep and that points to a bigger point...there are companies and people out there who'd be willing to help us with original design and development.

The key, however, is that AHQ must break out of the "turnkey mentality" of having the vendor do everything (CATIC and JF-17) and shift to something closer to the PN mentality of managing different vendors toward a common goal (e.g., JCF, Sea Sultan, SWATS, etc.).

So, instead of "first-layer" OEMs, you're now going to work with the "second" and "third" layer guys who'd feed into the "first-layer OEM's" projects. This is where NASTP would need to "get good" (i.e., managing the work and at the same time learning). TAI's been doing this with the Hurkus, Hurjet, and KAAN by bringing in overseas 2nd and 3rd layer entities to help them, but we can't overstate the importance of the lead OEM (NASTP) not messing things up.

That said, there are companies out there that know how to help, e.g., Airbus DS Spain, Paramount Group, Baykar Group, Diamond, etc., to varying degrees. Ultimately, when relying on 2nd/3rd group OEMs, you're going to need to build your own in-house capacity to leverage what they know and fill in where they don't. One option for the latter could be to directly contract the experts from the 1st tier OEMs, as TAI had done with BAE.

yes,

just anecdotal, but PAF insists on buying down to the last nut from the OEM, doesnt matter if theres better, cheaper, local, whatever, it MUST be from the oem, you cannot localise, its a joke

 

[Oscar]

yes,

just anecdotal, but PAF insists on buying down to the last nut from the OEM, doesnt matter if theres better, cheaper, local, whatever, it MUST be from the oem, you cannot localise, its a joke

Part of it has historical precedent and part is also because of known corruption in system. Worst case scenario you pay 10x for a part but at least it will be the right one and up to spec for a $70 million jet.
Not some refurbished or incorrect spec thing that costs you the aircraft and pilot potentially

 

[puttputt]

Part of it has historical precedent and part is also because of known corruption in system. Worst case scenario you pay 10x for a part but at least it will be the right one and up to spec for a $70 million jet.
Not some refurbished or incorrect spec thing that costs you the aircraft and pilot potentially

I bet the contract Leonardo's lining up for BAF AHQ will be offered to the PAF by the time IDEAS 2026 rolls around.

The industry now has a clear sense of when the F-16A/Bs will exit service (2040), and they know it's a turnkey scope.

The last bit that China competes really well on is financing/credit, but Leonardo Italy will not have trouble getting the PAF a release enough for 18~24 jets.

 

[Corax]

yes,

just anecdotal, but PAF insists on buying down to the last nut from the OEM, doesnt matter if theres better, cheaper, local, whatever, it MUST be from the oem, you cannot localise, its a joke

Better and cheaper always don't go together, besides, it can't outsource locally anyway because there isn't the industrial base, you can't compare major industrial economies like Turkey and South Korea with a largely rural and agricultural economy like Pakistan. For example, airframes of modern aircraft require a high percentage of advanced composite materials, is there any company in Pakistan that can produce such advanced composites with the required equipment such as autoclaves and carbon composite weaving machines? PAC can't wait to send out tenders locally and have local companies invest in the required infrastructure and expertise to cater for the demand, only to have the demand dry up once PAC is done. Better for PAC to outsource to companies abroad that already cater for such demand and have the required expertise and infrastructure, it'll probably be cheaper and quicker turnaround time.

 

[Toxic]

I bet the contract Leonardo's lining up for BAF AHQ will be offered to the PAF by the time IDEAS 2026 rolls around.

The industry now has a clear sense of when the F-16A/Bs will exit service (2040), and they know it's a turnkey scope.

The last bit that China competes really well on is financing/credit, but Leonardo Italy will not have trouble getting the PAF a release enough for 18~24 jets.

The EF is a massive long shot, at this stage I don't see the PAF inducting a another 4th gen platform, IMO development of a J-35S is highly likely that could serve in a drone command role for the PAF, perhaps teamed up with the CH-7 which will likely be offered for export since there doesn't seem to be much PLA interest around it.

 

[Ak01]

Not some refurbished or incorrect spec thing that costs you the aircraft and pilot potentially

but this is so rampant.

Alot of bids are made that end up being suspicious origin parts from the black market, whether they make it onto the aircraft or not, i dont know, but i know for a fact people still to this day try their hand.

But yea i get this, though, we really dont need to be importing hoses and washers, surely.

 

[Ak01]

Better and cheaper always don't go together, besides, it can't outsource locally anyway because there isn't the industrial base, you can't compare major industrial economies like Turkey and South Korea with a largely rural and agricultural economy like Pakistan. For example, airframes of modern aircraft require a high percentage of advanced composite materials, is there any company in Pakistan that can produce such advanced composites with the required equipment such as autoclaves and carbon composite weaving machines? PAC can't wait to send out tenders locally and have local companies invest in the required infrastructure and expertise to cater for the demand, only to have the demand dry up once PAC is done. Better for PAC to outsource to companies abroad that already cater for such demand and have the required expertise and infrastructure, it'll probably be cheaper and quicker turnaround time.

im literally talking about the lowest tier of parts, like hoses, washers, nuts etc!

 

[Yasser76]

This year's version. View attachment 165329

Once those pesky F-7s are gone we will have 4 main fighter types, still one too many I feel.

 

[rafale]

im literally talking about the lowest tier of parts, like hoses, washers, nuts etc!

Bhai....i work maintenance.....as i have said before, a lot of parts in aerospace and industrial sectors are similar to same.......when it comes to washers and tubings you'd be hard pressed to find actual high quality ones that are completely local made.

Just take a trip to any market or any vendor that does cabling work....they'd quote you cables that are made in Saudia or channel patti/conduit that is made in GCC countries.....i mean such basic things yet are not 100% locally available......and ones that are available will have their materials origin somewhere from China.

Pakistan seriously lacks industrial depth.

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Corax]

Once those pesky F-7s are gone we will have 4 main fighter types, still one too many I feel.

I have a feeling the PGs might hang around for a while for ground attack and COIN, decent firepower with those twin cannons. The Mirages should be replaced with more J10s, although we might lose the conventional/nuke capability with the Raptor series, there's more modern alternatives, and with other delivery systems, may not be an issue.

 

[Fatman17]

I have a feeling the PGs might hang around for a while for ground attack and COIN, decent firepower with those twin cannons. The Mirages should be replaced with more J10s, although we might lose the conventional/nuke capability with the Raptor series, there's more modern alternatives, and with other delivery systems, may not be an issue.

The 2 tactical strike sqds of Mirage may soldier on for a few more years. Other Mirages should be retired.