Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[Hussain]

A great example is Israel - yes the IDF-AF has had a pretty spectacular record but at the same time many of their claims especially with overwhelming "wins" have been brought into question because of immediate "flooding" of media channels with their specific narrative.

Excellent observation, but one part of the equation is, the opponents it went up against were more or less useless. None of them were a "serious air force" by any stretch.

 

[TallGuy]

It's a mixed plate of information warfare and "looking bigger than you are".
A great example is Israel - yes the IDF-AF has had a pretty spectacular record but at the same time many of their claims especially with overwhelming "wins" have been brought into question because of immediate "flooding" of media channels with their specific narrative. That narrative also plays into how their foes start calculating because despite internal assessments you are now considering if your internal reports are accurate or not. After all, Pakistan was claiming a victory in 71 on the eastern front until the surrender and there are actual records of some people actually going into shock including cardiac arrest hearing of the opposite.

The same way, we saw an entire media narrative lead to an invasion of Iraq and the breaking of a media narrative for Israel to expose what they were actually doing in Gaza to a western population that normally has never questioned them.

Trump admin is being questioned on the effectiveness of the B-2 strikes while Iran was being laughed at CGI F-35s shot down.

So what is important is if a claim is made - is that it is verified especially if you are doing it as sort of an official military brief. If you claimed to have hit the S-400 then you better have done your BDA prior to making it. If you are certain you did hit it but cannot claim it - then create a very strong narrative or tone it down to "they were forced to withdraw".

It can be completely separate from actual reality - in reality you could shoot down 9 jets, hit 40 on the ground - and if you can only show 5 images for both escalation management and opsec reasons then you do just that. The enemy will know what happened to them, the active professional world will believe your narrative over theirs any day and you still have cards to throw at them including being able to show at the negotiation table if they start clamoring again for some conflict. This is especially true when your enemy values IMAGE ABOVE ALL ELSE.

After all, there was more happening than just in the air on the 27th of Feb than just in the air - but if you do start presenting "proofs" of that day then you also expose gaps they had.

i do not know about you but i am still in Awe when i was told PAF had 60 contracts handed over.
if one knows how much data was first converted into info and then correlated and then designated and able to disseminate properly which maintaining cohesion in large scale air battle where seconds & minutes are all you have!

On top of it exercise constraint on specifics engagement envelopes.

WOW!

I wanted to celebrate this with @Oscar @MastanKhan

 

[Bratva]

There are many here who insulted me for drinking kool-aid of PAF achievements, because it was all a lie unless satellite imagery is shown to them. There was some ranting about paying taxes and how military should tell them everything under freedom of information etc. Our likings/dislikings make the opinions biased, whether we didn’t tell the public enough or we told too much.
I don't think we can reach a consensus about it here but personally, I am quite satisfied with PAF decisions.

There were in n PAF high echelons, decision makers themselves who disagreed with chief just like people here you alluding about and those paf wallas released the white paper and were jailed for it or got sidelined and forcibly retired. You might be satisfied but there might exist dissent among decision makers about chief. If people raise geniune concerns , you cant dismiss them non chalantly just because you were conditioned to follow orders and never question your superiors.

 

[Yatağan]

I am actually astonished by your statement. The JF-17 project's main aim was to replace all 3rd gen fighters of PAF like F-7, Mirage and A-5. In total, there were 18 squadrons of these aircraft in 2010. Now, only 3 F-7PG and 3 upgraded Mirage squadrons left in PAF.

Instead of retiring the remaining F-7PG and Mirage squadrons, PAF has an opportunity to convert them into drones. By adopting the PLAAF's approach of turning legacy J-6/J-7 aircraft into kamikaze drones, these old assets could serve a new purpose. They would be particularly effective in any Operation Sindoor 2.0 for saturating and degrading IAF air defense networks.

 

[Ibbi32]

How many active Mirage III/5s are still serving with the PAF.

You mentioned it's 5 squadrons. How many would be in each squadron?

Roughly 80 mirages in active service its more akin to 3.5 squadrons

 

[MastanKhan]

Ironically, none of those members were enemy. They are Pakistanis who believe PAF should give evidence about each and every claim, whether Air to Air kills or ground targets struck in India. According to them, Pakistan is on weak wicket against India with the strategy you are proposing.

Hi,

Do you know the name Eli Cohen---. There is a movie out there now---.

If you have not---then I would suggest that you read up on ELI COHEN---.

His case study should be taught in all the army---navy---air force schools at multiple levels many a times---.

Basically---Eli---an argentinian jew---looked like a syrian arab got hooked by mossad and planted in syria as a businessman---. Became a well established businessman---made great friends with the military personal and the Syrian Palace---.

One day---supposedly he mentions to a syrian general about the war preparations if the israelis attacked.

He is invited to Golan hts---where he asks a Col---what of the israeli pi-gs attacked---hope we have enough to defend---.

The "innocent" Col points to all the hidden sites that were there to counter israeli tanks.

Rest is history.

We pakistanis already know who and what PAF is capable.

Anyone doubting their ability and wanting proof---to me he / she are SNIFFING around for information---. Do they have any ulterior motives---they know better---.

I would not give a rats ar-se to what they think if there was proof no proof. For me---PAF's word is GOLD.

 

[AeronautIR]

If you can answer please do, if it something that is classified then please ignore.

With all these aircrafts being retired, is there a program that is working on turning them into unmanned aircrafts / drones?

Nope. Too expensive.

 

[AeronautIR]

There were in n PAF high echelons, decision makers themselves who disagreed with chief just like people here you alluding about and those paf wallas released the white paper and were jailed for it or got sidelined and forcibly retired. You might be satisfied but there might exist dissent among decision makers about chief. If people raise geniune concerns , you cant dismiss them non chalantly just because you were conditioned to follow orders and never question your superiors.

I have stopped debating on this topic but Mr. Mastan Khan gave an opinion that was completely different from many others. Policies of PAF are not based on discussions on this forum but even if it were, who should be followed? Forget about me, the members can't even convince each other. Were they also conditioned to follow orders and never question their superiors?
Such sweeping statements can be used for point scoring and to show intellectual superiority but that doesn't mean the questions being raised are genuine. If you are also going to pass some snide remarks after this like others, please don’t bother. Let's just move on.

 

[AeronautIR]

Instead of retiring the remaining F-7PG and Mirage squadrons, PAF has an opportunity to convert them into drones. By adopting the PLAAF's approach of turning legacy J-6/J-7 aircraft into kamikaze drones, these old assets could serve a new purpose. They would be particularly effective in any Operation Sindoor 2.0 for saturating and degrading IAF air defense networks.

Not economically feasible in my opinion. We are already working on all types of drones including loyal wingman.

 

[AeronautIR]

Hi,

Do you know the name Eli Cohen---. There is a movie out there now---.

If you have not---then I would suggest that you read up on ELI COHEN---.

His case study should be taught in all the army---navy---air force schools at multiple levels many a times---.

Basically---Eli---an argentinian jew---looked like a syrian arab got hooked by mossad and planted in syria as a businessman---. Became a well established businessman---made great friends with the military personal and the Syrian Palace---.

One day---supposedly he mentions to a syrian general about the war preparations if the israelis attacked.

He is invited to Golan hts---where he asks a Col---what of the israeli pi-gs attacked---hope we have enough to defend---.

The "innocent" Col points to all the hidden sites that were there to counter israeli tanks.

Rest is history.

We pakistanis already know who and what PAF is capable.

Anyone doubting their ability and wanting proof---to me he / she are SNIFFING around for information---. Do they have any ulterior motives---they know better---.

I would not give a rats ar-se to what they think if there was proof no proof. For me---PAF's word is GOLD.

There is a TV show on Netflix about him, The Spy, starring Sacha Baron Cohen.

 

[White Privilege]

Hi,

There was no reason to show the satelite imagery and how the PAF neutered the opponent---.

Information is the issue---. Public does not need to know all the tactical details of the operation---.

It saw that there were no 5 times larger enemy aircraft in the air---and that is all it needed to see.

The nations who needed to know what happened would have gotten to know how it happened in due time---.

At the end of the day---the truth would have come afloat---.

I wish that the PAF had shot down 20-30 aircraft and acted stupid and blamed it on pilot error or sent wrong message to the piltos kind of excuse and hidden their tactical skills.

And rather than bragging about the 200 KM rage of the PL15---should have stuck to the 150KM range and made the enemy look even worse---and kep their mouths shut about the true capabilities of their weaponry---.

But---saldy the PAF could not contain itself and had to strut ad prance around---. So sad---.

That is one of my biggest concerns post May battle but I have also heard counter arguments. After 2019, over a decade long BVR superiority secret was out. AMRAAMs broke their cover and now Indians threw their vast money reserves at the problem to buy Rafales for the next fight. We had to put hard cash into fast replacing our F-16s as frontline fighters with a brand new aircraft and missiles. Now after just six years Indians again found out the hard way and are now throwing even more money at the problem. We can't replace/upgrade our systems ever few years, we don't have that kind of money. But the counter argument is that Indians may already know when their aircraft went down(or atleast PAF won't stay stagnant believing that Indians can't learn and will go back to the drawing board anyway) what they are facing and keeping quiet won't hide the secret so why not brag

 

[Oscar]

There were in n PAF high echelons, decision makers themselves who disagreed with chief just like people here you alluding about and those paf wallas released the white paper and were jailed for it or got sidelined and forcibly retired. You might be satisfied but there might exist dissent among decision makers about chief. If people raise geniune concerns , you cant dismiss them non chalantly just because you were conditioned to follow orders and never question your superiors.

Not the first time in PAF or overall PakMil history btw. But then Turkey did that as well for the coup situation - That being said before we go on the idea of the white paper and the "right to disagree"...
If this happened in the USAF for e.g. especially if this "white paper" was leaked to the press as it was but they’re usually framed as insubordination (toward a superior officer) or conduct prejudicial to discipline, not as a “coup”-style detention.

Heck, here is what would happen there -
Article 92 (Failure to obey order or regulation): Violating AFI directives requiring clearance before public release and that includes even privately prepared information about Air Force matters "must be reviewed for clearance" before public release.
Then Article 134 (General article): Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline.
FBI and Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) would investigate the leak
The officer would likely be suspended from duties, have security clearance revoked, and potentially face pretrial restriction or confinement depending on severity.

So regardless of the legitimacy of grievances, leaking an internal document to the press violates military regulations whether it was PAF or USAF.

Just so we are clear while talking to injustice.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Hi,

There was no reason to show the satelite imagery and how the PAF neutered the opponent---.

Information is the issue---. Public does not need to know all the tactical details of the operation---.

It saw that there were no 5 times larger enemy aircraft in the air---and that is all it needed to see.

The nations who needed to know what happened would have gotten to know how it happened in due time---.

At the end of the day---the truth would have come afloat---.

I wish that the PAF had shot down 20-30 aircraft and acted stupid and blamed it on pilot error or sent wrong message to the piltos kind of excuse and hidden their tactical skills.

And rather than bragging about the 200 KM rage of the PL15---should have stuck to the 150KM range and made the enemy look even worse---and kep their mouths shut about the true capabilities of their weaponry---.

1. Rafales are coming with AI to integrate kill chains along with stealth drones
2. integration and networking between 114 Rafales will be much easier now


yes, it was a blunder to disclose anything really!

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Roughly 80 mirages in active service its more akin to 3.5 squadrons

EIghty Mirage III/5s still active with the PAF is quite a high figure.

Consider the following:

Total Purchased by Pakistan	301
Total Inducted by PAF	166 (or 168)
Crashed	54
Retired	?

That's 112 (or 114) remaining to be retired if 54 crashed figure is correct.

To say, 80 are still active with the PAF, that would mean only 32 (or 34) were retired between 1968 and 2026.

Is that correct?

Let's dig a little deeper.

How many squadrons have retired their Mirages so far, and what would had been the number of aircraft in those squadrons?

Let's say, there were 4 squadrons that retired their Mirages, that would be an average of 8 aircraft per squadron.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Hi,

Do you know the name Eli Cohen---. There is a movie out there now---.

If you have not---then I would suggest that you read up on ELI COHEN---.

His case study should be taught in all the army---navy---air force schools at multiple levels many a times---.

Basically---Eli---an argentinian jew---looked like a syrian arab got hooked by mossad and planted in syria as a businessman---. Became a well established businessman---made great friends with the military personal and the Syrian Palace---.

One day---supposedly he mentions to a syrian general about the war preparations if the israelis attacked.

He is invited to Golan hts---where he asks a Col---what of the israeli pi-gs attacked---hope we have enough to defend---.

The "innocent" Col points to all the hidden sites that were there to counter israeli tanks.

Rest is history.

We pakistanis already know who and what PAF is capable.

Anyone doubting their ability and wanting proof---to me he / she are SNIFFING around for information---. Do they have any ulterior motives---they know better---.

I would not give a rats ar-se to what they think if there was proof no proof. For me---PAF's word is GOLD.

It's like the Indian analyst Pravin Sawney says (of the IAF losses), that those in the world who need to know what happened on 7 May 2025, they already know.

He's frustrated that Donald Trump keeps mentioning the number of Indian aircraft losses and there's no response from India at all.