Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[Awwad]

Those are not fighter pilot numbers though in your attachment.

The whole question is silly in itself and so are your attempt to link it with other countries. Their "openness" only extends so far. Can you tell me number of bomber pilots for the USAF fleet? Why stop there, how about specifically for the B-52 fleet, or F-22 pilots.

Anyways these numbers are highly classified for PAF (which even wants to censor serial numbers on 50yr old Mirages) so end of discussion here.

Well I don't want to know total B-52 pilots or F-22P's for that matter. Question came to my mind, because I wanted to assess the human resource capability of PAF particularly in expansion. What if PAF wants to add 50 or 100 new platforms to it, so what kind of effort & time would be required to develop the required human resource or is it readily available. You get to think on those lines when you start thinking strategically rather than tactically. You can call it 'silly' or whaever, its upto you lol.

BTW, I didn't 'attempt' to go to other countries. Its you who asked originally if 'other' countries also give this data out. I only answered, yes they do it. There's no reason to make a fuss out of nothing and for no reason. That'll be all. I already got the info what I was seeking. Cheers.

 

[Yasser76]

Well I don't want to know total B-52 pilots or F-22P's for that matter. Question came to my mind, because I wanted to assess the human resource capability of PAF particularly in expansion. What if PAF wants to add 50 or 100 new platforms to it, so what kind of effort & time would be required to develop the required human resource or is it readily available. You get to think on those lines when you start thinking strategically rather than tactically. You can call it 'silly' or whaever, its upto you lol.

BTW, I didn't 'attempt' to go to other countries. Its you who asked originally if 'other' countries also give this data out. I only answered, yes they do it. There's no reason to make a fuss out of nothing and for no reason. That'll be all. I already got the info what I was seeking. Cheers.

I think one of the things that has always been a strong point of PAF is the quality but also capacity of it's human resource strength.

Firstly our training institutions (Academy, War College, CCS etc) are not just good, but also quite big and can probably be expanded. In a situation where we need to surge we can greatly reduce the amount of foreign personnel we train at these insitutions. We also have personnel deputated to foreign countries too that can be recalled.

The numbers alone do not give an accurate picture of what PAF is capable of in war

 

[Yasser76]

Talons Entwined: Exercise Falcon Talon 2024​

• Published June 25, 2024
• By Senior Airman Zoie Cox
• Ninth Air Force (Air Forces Central) Public Affairs

PAKISTAN --
U.S. Air Force Central’s 378th Air Expeditionary Wing and Pakistan Air Force Airmen recently conducted the fifth iteration of Exercise Falcon Talon, a bilateral Field Training Exercise focused on tactical-level counter-terrorism, air-to-ground weapons employment, and subject matter expert exchanges, held in Pakistan from June 1 - June 11, 2024.

Airmen from across the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility deployed to Pakistan in support of this Agile Combat Employment operation. Air Mobility Command’s C-17 Globemaster III aircraft delivered passengers and cargo followed by the arrival of U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcons from the Aviano Air Base’s 510th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, also known as the ‘Buzzards,’ currently deployed to the region.

Exercise Falcon Talon 2024 provided U.S. forces the opportunity to integrate with Pakistani forces to expand training interactions and support operational objectives for both nations.

“Exercise Falcon Talon 2024 has been a distinctive opportunity for the 510th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron Buzzards to collaborate with our Pakistani Air Force partners and enhance our skills both in the air and on the ground,” said U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Leo Moore, 510th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron commander.

During Falcon Talon 2024, significant activities revolved around three key focus areas: tactical execution, logistics support, and planning integration. U.S. Airmen from various career fields worked alongside the Pakistan Air Force, engaging in real-world experience and knowledge exchange sessions covering areas such as firefighting, explosive ordnance disposal, security forces, medical, and joint terminal attack control.

Airmen from the 378th Expeditionary Civil Engineer Squadron Fire Department integrated with the Pakistan Air Force Fire Department to conduct aircraft pilot egress drills, fuel, munitions and aircraft firefighting, policy creation exercises, and effective debrief sessions to include the introduction of the “hot wash” briefing style. They exchanged knowledge and held a friendly firefighter competition at the end of the exercise to test new skills the fire crews learned.

“The impact has been immeasurable but positive, some of the small details have received extreme positive attention and many of our suggestions or methods of doing things have already begun to gain traction,” said U.S. Air Force Master Sgt. Jonathan Campos, 378th Expeditionary Civil Engineer Squadron Fire Department fire chief. “These exchanges not only help us showcase our expertise, but the personal relationships and bonds created and sense of community is palpable after such exercises.”

The Explosive Ordnance Disposal unit from the 378th Air Expeditionary Wing also collaborated with Pakistan Air Force during Falcon Talon 2024. They performed joint improvised explosive device training and operations and demonstrated techniques on how to safely handle complex problems under stressful circumstances.

Security Forces from the 378th Expeditionary Security Forces Squadron merged with Pakistan Air Force security and worked around-the-clock to secure an active airfield, all United States Air Force and Pakistan Air Force assets, and personnel. Along with countering any real-world threats, security forces also created three educational scenarios and equipment familiarization in which U.S. Air Force subject matter experts facilitated impromptu briefings and hands-on field exercises to Pakistan Air Force security members and leadership.

“The biggest takeaway is the exchange of differences in the manner in which we believe security should be accomplished, all while merging new ideas with the thought process of their security measures already in place,” said U.S. Air Force Tech. Sgt. Kevin Burk, 378th Expeditionary Security Forces Squadron flight sergeant. “The scenarios not only benefits collaboration in the long run of where we can take our bilateral security mindset.”

Critical to every emergency situation, a two-person medical team consisting of a medical technician and a flight surgeon deployed to support the exercise. Medical not only treated members for minor concerns during the exercise, but also coordinated and executed three drills to include an on-base aircraft crash contingency response, an off-base aircraft crash contingency scenario, and a visit with a Pakistan Air Force flight surgeon and local hospital where they simulated a mass casualty event.

“We discussed the differences in training and capabilities of our flight surgeons and the importance of mid-level providers in austere or resource limited locations,” said U.S. Air Force Staff Sgt. Brian Sanders, 378th Expeditionary Medical Squadron independent duty medical technician. “Pakistan Air Force has good medical knowledge, and we shared what we have learned and demonstrated how to improve exercises to help better simulate a real-world event.”

The U.S. Air Forces Central’s Air Warfare Center deployed a joint terminal attack control instructor to conduct academic discussions on airspace control authority, coordinated attacks, sensor management, and enhanced target descriptions. Together, the U.S. Air Force and Pakistan Air Force executed live fly missions involving helicopters for infiltration and exfiltration, fighter aircraft for close air support, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platforms for real-time targeting data and combat search and rescue support. Joint terminal attack control operations primarily focused on close air support drills in a counter-terrorism environment. These joint exercises enhance interoperability and reinforce tactical proficiency through shared experiences and real-time operations.

“Subject matter expert exchanges are crucial for ensuring interoperability and fostering trust in our allies' abilities,” said U.S. Air Force Tech. Sgt. Brandon Tatum, Air Warfare Center advanced training division chief joint terminal attack control instructor. “By working closely together, we can better understand each other's capabilities, enhance our coordination, and improve the overall effectiveness of our joint missions. This collaboration strengthens our mutual defense strategies and readiness.”

Falcon Talon is an annual, Pakistan Air Force hosted, event that builds on the crucial relationship between the two nations and brings together a powerful binational force to promote and advance mutual security in the region. U.S. Air Forces Central works regularly with regional partners during event scenarios and real-world operations to strengthen theater security cooperation efforts against aggressors within the region.

“The enduring partnership between our nations remains critical for the security of the region as the U.S. continues to stand with Pakistan in tackling the most pressing global and regional challenges, as we have since our mutual defense assistance agreement in 1954,” said Chief of Operations for Exercise Falcon Talon 2024, U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nicholas Gardner. “Falcon Talon 2024, 70 years later, sustains our partnership by building peace, security, and stability. Falcon Talon sharpens our Airmen's lethality. We look forward to working shoulder-to-shoulder in maintaining aircraft, protecting our Airmen, and building our bonds to last for another 70 years.”

Talons Entwined: Exercise Falcon Talon 2024

U.S. Air Force Central’s 378th Air Expeditionary Wing and Pakistan Air Force Airmen recently conducted the fifth iteration of Exercise Falcon Talon, a bilateral Field Training Exercise focused on

www.afcent.af.mil

 

[Reichmarshal]

Buddy, you were wrong when you said its a "confidential" info LOL! Everything isn't confidential. and about fighter pilots, I am really not interested in exact number. I just wanted idea on a ballpark figure. That is obtainable with the info I posted earlier. If you tally it with publicly available articles it matches too. So roughly it's about 2 to 3 pilots per aircraft.

Never mind Balakot, IAF is worse off than Pakistan Air Force on pilot strength

Compared to Pakistan Air Force’s 2.5 pilots per aircraft, the IAF is at a ratio of 1.5. The IAF also has issues with squadron strength and target practice.

theprint.in

U at this point in time are arguing for the sake of argument.....when u have lost the argument some time back.

If ur on this forum thinking, right or wrong u will braw beat ur line of thought into the members here....then u have another thing comming .
Even i am here to learn n as u can see from the no. Of my posts.
Some members here have such wealth of knowledge that at time its best just to be quite n read others post.

 

[Awwad]

U at this point in time are arguing for the sake of argument.....when u have lost the argument some time back.

If ur on this forum thinking, right or wrong u will braw beat ur line of thought into the members here....then u have another thing comming .
Even i am here to learn n as u can see from the no. Of my posts.
Some members here have such wealth of knowledge that at time its best just to be quite n read others post.

Ok boss. Let people decide who is doing arguments for the sake of arguments. Move on!
A piece of advise, don't see "no of posts" as a metric. No one knows anyone's background. I agree everyone including myself is here to learn & share. That was the sole reason to ask the question. Wrapping everything as 'confidential' isn't the way to go. I already explained the point why I had asked the question. Some of members have given very valuable input on that already. There is no reason to ignite your egos if I negated you that its not a confidential data. Otherwise, PAF wouldn't even public its pilots pass out parades which are very public events and other much bigger airforces won't public their data. I simply don't agree with you on your point. Let's respectfully agree to disagree then. Your personal response was unnecessary. Let's not do that. I will always respect credible information & arguments which make sense, I won't shy from accepting that I was wrong, so if you want to speak on merits of the topic you are welcome otherwise let's move on. Cheers!

 

[Oscar]

as we have since our mutual defense assistance agreement in 1954,” said Chief of Operations for Exercise Falcon Talon 2024, U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nicholas Gardner. “Falcon Talon 2024, 70 years later, sustains our partnership by building peace, security, and stability. Falcon Talon sharpens our Airmen's lethality. We look forward to working shoulder-to-shoulder in maintaining aircraft, protecting our Airmen, and building our bonds to last for another 70 years.”​

Talons Entwined: Exercise Falcon Talon 2024

U.S. Air Force Central’s 378th Air Expeditionary Wing and Pakistan Air Force Airmen recently conducted the fifth iteration of Exercise Falcon Talon, a bilateral Field Training Exercise focused on

www.afcent.af.mil

choti si baat - na mirch masala - keh ke rehe ga kehne wala.

Cue the conspiracy theories on what is a very important and mutually beneficial relationship barring who is in office or holding a baton

 

[HRK]

History of F-20 evaluation by PAF

 

[Fatman17]

Asia-Pacific​

A recently emerged photo has reignited discussions about Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program and its modernization efforts. The image depicts a JF-17 Thunder Block II aircraft carrying what appears to be a Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), potentially signifying a new chapter for Pakistan’s nuclear delivery capabilities. For decades, Pakistan’s aging Mirage III and Mirage V fighter jets have been believed to be the primary delivery system for the country’s nuclear arsenal. These jets are used to carry gravity bombs and have also been used for test launches of the Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM).

Source: DID

We need to see a video of a JF-17 releasing a ALCM. Until then this topic is mere speculation. HST JF-17 is the right platform to succeed the legacy Mirage aircraft in this particular role.

 

[MirageBlue]

2 pilots/ aircraft. You do the math.

Quite hard to believe this. It brings up some questions that maybe you could answer.

1)- How many hours per year do PAF fighter pilots usually get? NATO requirement is 180 hours per year.
2)- If 2 pilots are there per JF-17, and assuming each gets 120 hours per year, that's 240 hours per year per JF-17. That means with ~4000 hours of airframe life, each JF-17's total airframe life will be used up in just 16.6 years, without a SLEP.
3)- Even with airframe rotations, reserve airframes and all that, the oldest JF-17 Block 1s by this maths would be pretty much at the end of their airframe life, having entered service in 2007, being 17 years old. And without a SLEP, almost all of the PAF's JF-17 Blk1's would be nearing the end of their lives. And even the Blk 2's would be past their mid life.

So either the number of pilots per fighter is not correct and too high, or the number of flight hours per year is less than 120.

4)- Any idea what is the highest number of flight hours any pilot has got on the JF-17? Any patches that show like 2000 hours or so?

This would equally apply to the F-16 fleet, which by this standard should've run out of airframe life, given that the older F-16s even with SLEP after MLU only got about 8000 hours of airframe life. I won't even go to the Mirage and F-7 fleets which started with lower airframe life, especially the F-7, which won't be more than 3000 hours in all.

 

[Fatman17]

Quite hard to believe this. It brings up some questions that maybe you could answer.

1)- How many hours per year do PAF fighter pilots usually get? NATO requirement is 180 hours per year.
2)- If 2 pilots are there per JF-17, and assuming each gets 120 hours per year, that's 240 hours per year per JF-17. That means with ~4000 hours of airframe life, each JF-17's total airframe life will be used up in just 16.6 years, without a SLEP.
3)- Even with airframe rotations, reserve airframes and all that, the oldest JF-17 Block 1s by this maths would be pretty much at the end of their airframe life, having entered service in 2007, being 17 years old. And without a SLEP, almost all of the PAF's JF-17 Blk1's would be nearing the end of their lives. And even the Blk 2's would be past their mid life.

So either the number of pilots per fighter is not correct and too high, or the number of flight hours per year is less than 120.

4)- Any idea what is the highest number of flight hours any pilot has got on the JF-17? Any patches that show like 2000 hours or so?

This would equally apply to the F-16 fleet, which by this standard should've run out of airframe life, given that the older F-16s even with SLEP after MLU only got about 8000 hours of airframe life. I won't even go to the Mirage and F-7 fleets which started with lower airframe life, especially the F-7, which won't be more than 3000 hours in all.

Sure Boss.

From a reputable source.

 

[MirageBlue]

Sure Boss.
View attachment 53107
View attachment 53108
From a reputable source.

Thanks.

So one thing it makes clear is that in it's assessment, both the PAF and IAF pilots get approx. 240 hours per year of flying. At least no trolls can claim that the PAF pilots get more flying time than IAF pilots do.

But, this makes it even harder to believe that the PAF maintains a ratio of 2 pilots to each fighter.

Because if that were to be true, each JF-17 squadron (or F-16 for that matter) would be having each of it's fighters flying close to 480 hours per year.

480 hours per year would mean that the JF-17's airframe life of 4000 hours would be used up in less a decade! Which hasn't happened yet as we have 12 to 16 year old JF-17 Block 1s still flying with no talk of a SLEP as yet.

With the F-7PGs that would be even harder given they're basically based on the MiG-21F and their airframe life is no greater than 3000 hours total.

So how would you explain that contradiction?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Thanks.

So one thing it makes clear is that in it's assessment, both the PAF and IAF pilots get approx. 240 hours per year of flying. At least no trolls can claim that the PAF pilots get more flying time than IAF pilots do.

But, this makes it even harder to believe that the PAF maintains a ratio of 2 pilots to each fighter.

Because if that were to be true, each JF-17 squadron (or F-16 for that matter) would be having each of it's fighters flying close to 480 hours per year.

480 hours per year would mean that the JF-17's airframe life of 4000 hours would be used up in less a decade! Which hasn't happened yet as we have 12 to 16 year old JF-17 Block 1s still flying with no talk of a SLEP as yet.

With the F-7PGs that would be even harder given they're basically based on the MiG-21F and their airframe life is no greater than 3000 hours total.

So how would you explain that contradiction?

You dont need to get your flying hours on 1 type - K8s etc also count as jet hours.

 

[CombatCorner]

You dont need to get your flying hours on 1 type - K8s etc also count as jet hours.

The loser can't comprehend the fact of pilots to plane ratio.

 

[Fatman17]

Thanks.

So one thing it makes clear is that in it's assessment, both the PAF and IAF pilots get approx. 240 hours per year of flying. At least no trolls can claim that the PAF pilots get more flying time than IAF pilots do.

But, this makes it even harder to believe that the PAF maintains a ratio of 2 pilots to each fighter.

Because if that were to be true, each JF-17 squadron (or F-16 for that matter) would be having each of it's fighters flying close to 480 hours per year.

480 hours per year would mean that the JF-17's airframe life of 4000 hours would be used up in less a decade! Which hasn't happened yet as we have 12 to 16 year old JF-17 Block 1s still flying with no talk of a SLEP as yet.

With the F-7PGs that would be even harder given they're basically based on the MiG-21F and their airframe life is no greater than 3000 hours total.

So how would you explain that contradiction?

Depending on the pilots seniority the pilot training would take him to a
OCU Squadron
A Squadron whether its JF-17 or Mirage to F-16 or a J-10C and Depending on the pilots proficiency even the elite CCS from where Top Guns emerge as well as Squadron Leaders (OC) or Wing Commanders (OC).
As someone rightly said the pilots rotate through various aircraft and Squadrons.
Aircraft airframe overhauls have their own timetable and the PAF is well placed to perform the same in-house at PAC Kamra.
At F-16 net one can find PAF pilots and others who have achieved 1,000 hours or more on one type regardless of the aircraft airframe situation.
There are no records available to the public for other types of aircraft.
I'm not a expert but this is what I know from available information.

 

[Oscar]

Thanks.

So one thing it makes clear is that in it's assessment, both the PAF and IAF pilots get approx. 240 hours per year of flying. At least no trolls can claim that the PAF pilots get more flying time than IAF pilots do.

But, this makes it even harder to believe that the PAF maintains a ratio of 2 pilots to each fighter.

Because if that were to be true, each JF-17 squadron (or F-16 for that matter) would be having each of it's fighters flying close to 480 hours per year.

480 hours per year would mean that the JF-17's airframe life of 4000 hours would be used up in less a decade! Which hasn't happened yet as we have 12 to 16 year old JF-17 Block 1s still flying with no talk of a SLEP as yet.

With the F-7PGs that would be even harder given they're basically based on the MiG-21F and their airframe life is no greater than 3000 hours total.

So how would you explain that contradiction?

Pilot and airframe rotation.
It is an average of 240 hours - going from novice to most experienced it varies. Same for the IAF.
JF-17 block 1s have hit nearly 4k hours but mix of rebuilds has extended it but no SLEP announcement was made. Because kamra can support pretty much everything needed for a SLEP or total rebuild they are pretty “abused” airframes.
Left in the sun, put through flight hours with relative abandon. There is NDT, rebuild analysis done at Kamra - wing spars replaced etc.

The PAF would not make that judgement if it did not have a way to either exceed or manage those 4000 hours beyond(which are actually conservative guidelines provided for export purposes). But, since we don’t have a CAG no true way to verify beyond living room talk or whatever they release publicly. @Talon

The F-16 on the other hand is rationed very well - kept climate controlled in many cases / spares run through a purpose built logging system in coordination with GD/USAF(publication is available) - yet does have certain airframes slated for retirement earlier than others.

F-7PG pilots averaged 220 during some peak exercises but they dont go as high as 240.

Mirages also average flight hours pretty differently, the ROSE get less hours than the other airframes which are used to maintain hours and currency.

During certain exercises certain rookie CCS pilots were hitting higher numbers and were drained out to dangerous levels. Then more physiological and psychological training/conditioning was introduced.