Pakistan Army Small Arms

[Path-Finder]

7.62X39 is a pretty decent assault round in my opinion.
Multiple platforms provide flexibility based on mission profile, you can't just use/carry a standard rifle on every mission. 7.62X51 is a battle rifle round well suited for defending fortified positions with long range and hard hitting capabilities. SSG/Para can't use the same they need to carry lighter weapons with higher count, artillery/armored/missile personnel also carry smaller/lighter weapons. I am not sure what the debate is, I am all for newer modern light weight guns but in my opinion our main stay battle round should be 762X51, not 545 or 556 which have proven to be not too effective in many scenarios, there is a lot of literature on that based on US real war experience in Gulf and Afghanistan.

7.62x39 has become redundant. Like I already mentioned, given a choice between 7.62x39 and 5.56! 5.56 just takes the crown.
7.62x39 is great for hunting and eliminating threats that are immediately in your vicinity like a bear attack.

7.62x51 is a battle rifle territory and both x39 and x51 have weight factor, recoil of the rifle and ammo carrying. if you have to carry a heavy rifle ammo and rifles now have added mods on them too. If you are on patrol in mountainous terrain or any place not flat. you will have fatigue.

All nations that went from 7.62 to 5.56/5.45 are not complaining. they have battle experience too. The stopping power is not related to accuracy! The assailant got shot and hit. They did not miss. That is why a squad has 1-2 marksmen rifles. rest have 5.56!

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

The ideal round, at least IMO, would center around a 6.5mm bullet. The 6.5mm is superior to both the 5.56 and the 7.62 in terms of accuracy, ballistics, and impact energy. There is a reason why USSOCOM has fielded the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge in a number of situations including at one point in Afghanistan.

I have a 6.5C built on an AR-308 (you know it as AR-10) platform. The rifle was built for competition purposes and is capable of holding sub-MOA accuracy at 600 yards with no issue. I'd have no problem shooting it in LR competitions out to and including 1000 yards.

The cartridge has less recoil than the 7.62x51 and has been the cartridge of choice for a number of winners at the US National High Power Matches at Camp Perry, OH. Including by one of the two guys who designed it.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

All nations that went from 7.62 to 5.56/5.45 are not complaining. they have battle experience too. The stopping power is not related to accuracy! The assailant got shot and hit. They did not miss. That is why a squad has 1-2 marksmen rifles. rest have 5.56!

Some of those DMR / SDM rifles will be chambered in 5.56 as well.

 

[Toxic]

The ideal round, at least IMO, would center around a 6.5mm bullet. The 6.5mm is superior to both the 5.56 and the 7.62 in terms of accuracy, ballistics, and impact energy. There is a reason why USSOCOM has fielded the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge in a number of situations including at one point in Afghanistan.

I have a 6.5C built on an AR-308 (you know it as AR-10) platform. The rifle was built for competition purposes and is capable of holding sub-MOA accuracy at 600 yards with no issue. I'd have no problem shooting it in LR competitions out to and including 1000 yards.

The cartridge has less recoil than the 7.62x51 and has been the cartridge of choice for a number of winners at the US National High Power Matches at Camp Perry, OH. Including by one of the two guys who designed it.

The issue would be having to setup production lines and building up stockpiles of a completely new ammunition type, PA has a **** ton of 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 and to some degree 5.56 ammunition stockpiled, this is one of the reasons why they are so hesitant on choosing something different.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

That's understandable. A change like that is hard. That was exactly the issue the US faced between WWI and WWII when the Garand and Pederson rifles were being developed. The Brits had already demonstrated that a .276 (or was it .280?) caliber bullet would provide everything and then some over the .303.

US engineers had reached similar conclusions and why they were developing the new rifles around the new cartridge. It was Douglas MacArthur who put a stop to it due to the billions of rounds of Caliber .30 M1 ammo still in inventory at the time. He did not want to deal with the logistics of having a new round when there was still plenty of existing ammo available. So, back to the drawing boards went Garand and Pederson. Garand won.

It some point, PA is going to have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and either look to adopting a new caliber, or improving upon existing calibers. Personally, I'd reduce reliance on 7.62x39; keep enough around for certain operations but not as a front-line cartridge, and look at enhancing the capabilities of the 5.56 and 7.62x51.

The current US Mk262 Mod whatever ammo is outstanding. I've commented when the M-16A2 was introduced, we should have gone right for a 73-77gr bullet instead of the 62gr that was introduced.

 

[Tremain]

My guy tried really really hard to sell me this one... Made for Chinese cops. They use an odd bullet... 5.8x21mm... but he was giving me the 9mm version. He swore it was the best.... QSZ-92.

I didn't like the trigger and got something else.



5.8...... what the hell....?

 

[Baibers_1260]

For some light comedy, here are two "geniuses " from our enemy ranks, extolling the advantages of using a SMLE No.4 303 over AKMs in a under 300 m range congested environment in one of the largest enemy railway stations.
I guess the fact that the long range bolt action magazine service rifle used for "fire at will" marksmen or volley fire early in World War I, went obsolete in World War II and was reduced to a support weapon to machine guns is lost on these two "exalted " gentlemen. The light machine gun or Squad Automatic Weapons has been the prime infantry weapon since 1940.
In the 1962 India China war the Chinese using RPD machine guns, a mix of Simonov SKS semi-automatic rifles with NCO's using AKMs ( Type 56) in full automatic mode, wiped out Indian border posts stuck in their fox holes with SMLE 303 No 4 in infantry assaults. The heavy immobile Berthier machine guns used by the Indians were too cumbersome to be used in infantry assaults.
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[AZ_HighCountry]

My guy tried really really hard to sell me this one... Made for Chinese cops. They use an odd bullet... 5.8x21mm... but he was giving me the 9mm version. He swore it was the best.... QSZ-92.

I didn't like the trigger and got something else.

View attachment 134676

5.8...... what the hell....?

Nice combination of CZ-75, BHP, Beretta Cougar, and HK USP controls there.

5.8? WTF? Even I passed on the 5.7.

9mm and .45ACP have been effectively dispatching people since 1909.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

For some light comedy, here are two "geniuses " from our enemy ranks, extolling the advantages of using a SMLE No.4 303 over AKMs in a under 300 m range congested environment in one of the largest enemy railway stations.
I guess the fact that the long range bolt action magazine service rifle used for "fire at will" marksmen or volley fire early in World War I, went obsolete in World War II and was reduced to a support weapon to machine guns is lost on these two "exalted " gentlemen. The light machine gun or Squad Automatic Weapons has been the prime infantry weapon since 1940.
In the 1962 India China war the Chinese using RPD machine guns, a mix of Simonov SKS semi-automatic rifles with NCO's using AKMs ( Type 56) in full automatic mode, wiped out Indian border posts stuck in their fox holes with SMLE 303 No 4 in infantry assaults. The heavy immobile Berthier machine guns used by the Indians were too cumbersome to be used in infantry assaults.
Enjoy the show !

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Do they has a podcast praising the INSAS?

 

[Baibers_1260]

Do they has a podcast praising the INSAS?

Don't know.. I am sure they discussed it somewhere. The wholr series CTRL-ALT-DEFENSE is a list lamentations and somewhere there is podcast on INSAS and the catastrophic failure. Someone in their wisdom painted the INSAS furniture bright yellow. Our army should send them a thank you note.
70% of India's paramilitary is still armed with SMLE No 4s chambered for 7.52 x 51 cartridge.

 

[Toxic]

Don't know.. I am sure they discussed it somewhere. The wholr series CTRL-ALT-DEFENSE is a list lamentations and somewhere there is podcast on INSAS and the catastrophic failure. Someone in their wisdom painted the INSAS furniture bright yellow. Our army should send them a thank you note.
70% of India's paramilitary is still armed with SMLE No 4s chambered for 7.52 x 51 cartridge.

That's sounds to absurd to be true.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Don't know.. I am sure they discussed it somewhere. The wholr series CTRL-ALT-DEFENSE is a list lamentations and somewhere there is podcast on INSAS and the catastrophic failure. Someone in their wisdom painted the INSAS furniture bright yellow. Our army should send them a thank you note.
70% of India's paramilitary is still armed with SMLE No 4s chambered for 7.52 x 51 cartridge.

The last group of people I saw equipped with SMLEs were the Kenyan park rangers in the Masai Mara. Interestingly, they carried a mix of SMLEs and G3s. The SMLEs were still chambered in .303 British.

The Canadian frontier types retired theirs long ago.

 

[Baibers_1260]

The last group of people I saw equipped with SMLEs were the Kenyan park rangers in the Masai Mara. Interestingly, they carried a mix of SMLEs and G3s. The SMLEs were still chambered in .303 British.

The Canadian frontier types retired theirs long ago.

Yes, The Canadian Rangers switched to Colt C19s in 2019. The Canadian Rangers still retain some stocks of SMLE No. 4s as reserve. It's not clear how they got sufficient supplies of functional 0.303 ammunition, which would have expired by now being at least 70 years old. So it is doubtful if the Rangers got much range practice with their SMLEs even when they were using them.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/canadian-rangers-lee-enfield.html

Indian bank guards, remote rural police stations, rural post office savings banks, railway guards, forest guards are still using SMLE Mark 3s ( repeat Mark 3s) . The Ishapore Rifle factory near Calcutta kept manufacturing Mark 3s throughout World War II and only switched to No 4s in the early 1950s.
A peculiar feature of the Indian "police version " of the Ishapore Mark 3s that was issued to the state home guards and armed constabulary up to the 1970s was the removal of the magazine and clip loading ramp. A floor plate was permanently fixed in place of the magazine with a ramp. This change converted the magazine rifle into a single shot weapon. Why the Indian government did this is a mystery. Some say it was an insurance against mutinous constabulary holding their own, against the Indian Army which was also equipped with SMLEs. though improved magazine No, 4s.
Another hilarious spoof Lee Enfield version, used by the Indian Police were 410 smoothbore musket versions firing brass cased 410 shot shells. Thats right 410s. Even though they closely resembled Lee Enfield Mark 3 s they were NOT rifles. In the prevailing wisdom of the stiff upper lip "Koi Hai" Indian Police Service officers, the Indian police equipped with Lee Enfield 410 muskets were sent to tackle bandits in the infamous Chambal Valley. The bandits were mostly equipped with double barrel 12 gauge shotguns firing rifled slugs and buckshot, as well as a few hunting Mauser magazine 8 mm rifles. The results were quite predictable

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

In other words, highly doubtful the Indians will be overrunning anyone anytime soon.

Hell, with just my collection of M-1s and a few friends, we have the firepower of a company of Indian infantry armed with SLMEs.

Back OT, Pakland really needs to look at easing out the AK series outside of certain special applications and focus on the calibers it knows best: 5.56 and 7.62x51.

FWIW, I am now playing with .300BO. I can duplicate 7.62x39 performance from a cartridge whose parent case is 5.56x45.

 

[Baibers_1260]

In other words, highly doubtful the Indians will be overrunning anyone anytime soon.

Hell, with just my collection of M-1s and a few friends, we have the firepower of a company of Indian infantry armed with SLMEs.

Back OT, Pakland really needs to look at easing out the AK series outside of certain special applications and focus on the calibers it knows best: 5.56 and 7.62x51.

FWIW, I am now playing with .300BO. I can duplicate 7.62x39 performance from a cartridge whose parent case is 5.56x45.

What with my limited knowledge I would suggest is a replacement for the venerable MG3 machine gun with a smaller more compact Squad Automatic Weapon. The FN MiniMi and M249Para are obvious choices but politically and price wise not feasible . QJB-201 should be evaluated if it hasn't already.
The individual infantry support weapn ( assault rifle) could be
QBZ-95 chambered for the 5.56 X 45 round