Pakistan has a Problem | Quwa Group - My Counter Thoughts

[the vicious kind]

I think the most cost effective countermeasure is a similar effective supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles that can give back India in a similar dosage and destructions.

Countermeasures are too resource intensive and expensive. Pakistan doesn’t have the time or luxury.

If the Indians know every time they target a Pakistani airbase, 2-3 airbases of theirs will go up in flames, they won’t engage in these sorts of attacks. Problem is Pakistan has been investing in ballistic missiles when the era of ballistic missiles is objectively over. They have dismissed supersonic and hypersonic missiles.

Systems like electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic warfare (EW), GPS spoofing, and even point-defense weapon systems are now much more accessible than they used to be. Many countries with limited defense budgets have successfully integrated these tools into their air defense networks. They're not necessarily luxury items and have been proven quite effective.

Regarding the role of ballistic missiles—there’s strong evidence to suggest they remain very relevant on the modern battlefield. Take Ukraine’s use of HIMARS and ATACMS. HIMARS-launched GMLRS rockets and ATACMS missiles have been highly effective in striking deep targets, including ammunition depots, airfields, and command centers. This the main reason why Pakistan invested in Fateh series guided rockets.

And you forgot the introduction of PrSM (Precision Strike Missile) by the U.S. Ballestic Missile remain very relevant on the modern battlefield.

 

[TAC]

After its ass got handed to it yet again in the air India had to resort to BrahMos and drones in desperate effort to do something meaningful to show its rabid public. When Pakistan finally responded to 2 days of provocation with its own missile and drone attacks, the very next morning India’s spokesperson is on record confirming damage to Indian bases in material / manpower and asking for mutual deescalation. That should give some indication of if Pakistans response was effective or not.
Those are the FACTS and should be undisputed.
Does Pakistan need to learn whatever it can from this episode and fill any gaps, ofcoarse it does same as any capable and professional force should and I am absolutely sure they will.
The rest is just level coping by desperate Indians who find it hard to live with the humiliation they were handed and some overly critical Pakistanis who will always see the glass half full. Ask yourself if India had shot down 6 of our jets including J-10’s against none of theirs would you find any Indian on planet earth having a go at their military / political leadership? On the contrary, Modi would have been declared a living god by now with the Indian public would be lining up for Pooja.

 

[flyingorca]

No matter how good your air defense gets, super or hyper sonic missiles will still be able to penetrate your territory. The best counter is to have 5 to 10k super and hyper sonic missiles of your own to overwhelm your enemy's air defense.

 

[the vicious kind]

No air defense system is 100% foolproof on its own, but a multi-layered air defense system offers near-total protection. The S-400 is just one component of India’s multi-layered air defense network. Even if the S-400 fails to intercept an incoming missile, several other systems are positioned further along the defense chain, including India’s indigenous Aakash TEER system. Interception is not solely dependent on the S-400; instead, it is carried out layer by layer by multiple systems. In addition to missile interceptors, electronic jammers and directed energy weapons also play a crucial role in neutralizing threats.

Even the most advanced and multilayered air defense systems in the world aren't foolproof. We've seen this in recent conflicts—Iranian and Yemeni ballistic missiles have managed to penetrate Israel’s air defense, which is widely regarded as one of the most sophisticated and layered networks globally. Systems like Iron Dome, David’s Sling, Arrow, and Patriot all work in tandem, yet many missiles still get through.

Claiming total interception is just not credible, especially when real-world conflicts show otherwise.

And let’s be honest—eyewitness accounts don’t prove anything. The average person can't tell the difference between an interceptor launch and an incoming missile. Most people see a flash or hear a bang and immediately form conclusions with zero technical understanding. That’s not evidence—it’s noise.

So if we’re basing arguments on “I saw something in the sky,” it’s not going to hold up.
Stick to verified data not feel-good cerebral diarrhea

 

[Great Mal]

The

This is quite devoid of reality.

"I am sick of the BrahMos Hype . BrahMost isn’t some silver bullet. India fired 40 to 50 of them, and what’s the outcome? A few damaged hangars? Not a single high-value target taken out. Zero."

It was very clear India kept its hand restrained too- there was literally nothing stopping them from escalating heavily and striking at will. You're doing a great job at 'attempting' to minimise the impact. India was able to strike wherever they wanted, deep inside pak airspace, attacking airfields far inland. Thats something we did not think could happen. If they wanted to, they would have done 10x more damage and we'd have done nothing about it.

"Yeah, it’s fast—but it turns like a 16-wheeler ( cant do effective midcourse correction). And it’s been jammed, spoofed, and even shot down"

So why were they unable to be intercepted? Thats my question, the forces had the radar data, the forces knew what to expect and what to look for, since theyve got this huge turn radius and fly in a straght line, why did so many get through?


"And it’s been jammed, spoofed, and even shot down"
Lets pretend 10 were launched- they claimed 16, of which, 2 were verifiably intercepted/duds. A 20% interception rate does not bode well. What you saw in Lahore was an Israeli Rampage missile- as evident by the canards. Also, they have their own INS to fall back on, how do you jam a RLG based INS? They have a 1m CEP, lets pretend they're wholly relying on INS guidance, all youve done is degrade their CEP, not deny their ability to effectively strike...

"Why would Brahmos be a threat to China. The Chinese already have something far superior than the Brahmos , its called CJ-100 CM (DF-100). Its faster ( Hypersonic) and has a bigger range and better navigation."

Because it has serious destructive power? Because its an extremely capable and deadly missile? Why are we hell bent on becoming like the Indians and brushing things off? It blows my mind that the Indian armed forces could literally crater every single airbase with a swarm of BrahMos and you're here pretending the situation is ok. If tomorrow, a full scale war kicked off, half the PAF would be destroyed on the ground...

People quickly forget that the actual silver bullet is india building up a huge stockpile of them whilst we have been twiddling our fingers.

No matter how fast, slow, long it is, what matters is they have enough stockpile to disable our airbases & key infrastructure with massive volleys.

Whilst Pakistan nothing to counter it defensive or offensive.

Pretty big wake up call for the boomer babus at helm

 

[flyingorca]

Pakistan did launch several nuclear-capable ballistic and cruise missiles, but all of them were flawlessly intercepted by India’s air defense system. The global praise for India’s air defense isn’t without reason—it is a highly refined system, deeply integrated into the country’s network-centric warfare ecosystem.

Any wreckage of PA ballistic missile?

 

[PakistaniDefender]

The issue is, and im sure @Quwa and @JamD will agree, but, we have not even scratched the surface, while on the forums, the situation looks all well and good, the reality is, there is significant failings in the 'system'.

While we could sit there and talk about xyz planes intercepted- what benefit does this bring to the discussion? The idea is not to sit there and praise babar etc for shooting down a couple of planes, because in the grand scheme of things, this isnt really very meaningful. This is their job and aircraft losses are expected.

I cant see many other 'successes' from the strikes. BuM was very much an optics driven attack, to feed the thirst of the locals for revenge, there was no meaningful results from the strike and beyond anything, it exposed even further shortfalls in their operational capabilities- but otoh, it was a very limited, hands tied behind the back kind of deal so i guess theres that too.

The thing is, and i cant speak for the others, but i dont find it particularly relevant in the overall picture that the IAF lost a few planes. What we find is this uncovers a real deeper issue, the Indians have *thousands* of BrahMos, if this had broken into a full scale war, i genuinely believe there wouldnt have been any recovering, it would have meant a significant blow to Pakistan. The other aspect which has come to light is effectively, at this point in time, India is able to strike deep, deep in Pakistan, the Idea was that airbases far west are safe- they're not. This changes the entire psychology of the forces, the realisation that nothing is safe is not a small one, it sets a very somber mood. The Indians can effectively retaliate to whatever they want, strike Pakistan far and deep and what they've realised is Pakistan either wont respond, or just give a half arsed, optics driven response to feed the local pop. This is the biggest takeway.

I am saying the same thing in other threads as well. Pakistan needs credible air defense and impactful conventional missiles stockpile more than the 5th gen aircrafts

 

[Zorawar Light Tank]

Even the most advanced and multilayered air defense systems in the world aren't foolproof. We've seen this in recent conflicts—Iranian and Yemeni ballistic missiles have managed to penetrate Israel’s air defense, which is widely regarded as one of the most sophisticated and layered networks globally. Systems like Iron Dome, David’s Sling, Arrow, and Patriot all work in tandem, yet many missiles still get through.

Claiming total interception is just not credible, especially when real-world conflicts show otherwise.

And let’s be honest—eyewitness accounts don’t prove anything. The average person can't tell the difference between an interceptor launch and an incoming missile. Most people see a flash or hear a bang and immediately form conclusions with zero technical understanding. That’s not evidence—it’s noise.

So if we’re basing arguments on “I saw something in the sky,” it’s not going to hold up.
Stick to verified data not feel-good cerebral diarrhea

No Pakistani missile struck any location in India. debris did fall from the sky but, there was no damage reported.
India’s air defense system may not yet be 100% foolproof but, it is rapidly improving due to continuous research and development. The accuracy of Indian air defense systems today is significantly higher than it was five to six years ago, and over the next five to six years, it will become even more advanced and precise.

India’s missile defense shield will eventually become 100% foolproof. That said, I’m not suggesting that China’s air defense system won’t improve as well. They are also continuously advancing their capabilities and are likely to achieve the same level of effectiveness in the future.

Army, Navy, and Air Force are integral components of the air defense system. In fact, their role often goes beyond just interceptor missiles—they can target and destroy enemy missiles at their launch sites, as well as neutralize missile depots and aircraft before they pose a threat.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

India crosses border

Doesn't that crosses nuclear threshold? We have Nasr for this

 

[Yasser76]

6 Indian jets were not down but 3-4 is the number.
Also it was possible because of the RoE at that time.

Once PAF fired those BVRs, the Indian ADs came up and Pakistani jets went behind along with the AWACs only to do very small incursion to 100km from the Pakistan on May 10.

Also IAF didn't remain grounded for two day.
When CDS said India hit Pakistan bases two day later, he simply meant the date and time of Indian attack which for most part was necessitated by Fateh-2 missile strike by Pakistan.

Only an Indian can argue that it was a victory as 4 planes were lost not 6. Clowns.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

Pakistan’s response was hampered by army dominated GHQ which turned a clear win on the 7th into an unnecessary mess.

Don't u think they were waiting for aid confirmation from IMF first

 

[CallSignMaverick]

Perhaps I didn't explain my point clearly.

My point was that no AD is 100% guaranteed and some BrahMos will always get through so we should build our bases in such a way that mountains or artificial fortifications provide some shielding in those directions. It is a low tech last resort tactic but why not?

That's precisely why a 90 degree steep dive variant of BrahMos was developed to hit Chinese targets behind mountains of Himalayas/Tibet.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I think the most cost effective countermeasure is a similar effective supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles that can give back India in a similar dosage and destructions.

Countermeasures are too resource intensive and expensive. Pakistan doesn’t have the time or luxury.

If the Indians know every time they target a Pakistani airbase, 2-3 airbases of theirs will go up in flames, they won’t engage in these sorts of attacks. Problem is Pakistan has been investing in ballistic missiles when the era of ballistic missiles is objectively over. They have dismissed supersonic and hypersonic missiles.

Agree with the first part but ballistics still have their use too. See HIMARS use in Ukraine or the Iskander, Kinzhal.

I think what Pakistan needs to build is our domestic equivalents to the following with a range going upto 2000km:

- YJ-12 (land attack SSCM)
- DF-21/DF-26 (long range MaRV for penetration, anti-aircraft carrier)
- DF-17 (Hypersonic glide vehicle warhead)

The Andaman & Nicobar Islands are like 4000k away.

But these can compliment our current missiles and the Fatah series.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

its even worse on the 054a's btw.

Ive been screaming from the top of my lungs- those ships will not survive.

They have a serious limitation in terms of saturation attacks- 2 missiles per channel, 8 in total. This is exactly what killed the Moskva- trying to intercept a TB2 on one side, but not being able to guide a missile on the other side at the same time etc

Should we go for Type 052D/Es as well then?

 

[Yasser76]

Why are we hell bent on downplaying- genuinely?

Some of our deepest airbases were struck, an erieye was damaged, personnel were killed and runways had holes in them.

Why is this not alarming to you that we were not able to prevent this, but beyond this, why is it not alarming to you that we were not prepared for this?

If we had volleys of dozens of missiles per target inbound, the airbases would not be roast, theyd be cremated... Its this "meh, nothing happened" attitude that lead this to happen- its the same attitude thats carried on in the upper levels of the leadership. Even Indian CDS said we learnt and implemented, yet we want to bury our heads in the sand.

a gap of a few thousand missiles is not small!

Erieye was damaged? Source?

No one is downplaying anything, what IU am tired of is many on here picking up on BS Indian talking points.

1) We hit Indian airbases too
2) The engineerings hangers at J'bad and Bolhari are about 100x100 meters big, its the same as India striking Pak Parliament, which is just as big and just as useless
3) No country on earth can prevent hits on its airbases. Every modern air force takes this into account, go look at the HAS's at PAF bases
4) If IAF really wanted to send a message about their capaibilities and real time targeting, they could have found where we had parked our J-10CEs that had delivered so much pain to them, then use precision strikes to take them out in a HAS, then shown the world the BDA picks afterwards. Instead they damaged the mainetence hangers at a few air bases which means a few airmen now have to repair jets in the open for a few weeks
5) What if they sent a thousand missiles? Sure, a massive escalatiion but seems to reek too much of worry. If PAF had properly dispersed it's assets (which does seem to be the case), India would have to successfully get missiles past all our defences, then target every HAS with precision. USAF could not do that with Iraq.
6) What we do not know is how many Bhramos were fired, of that number, how many were downed by soft/hard kill, and of then remaining number how many were accurate. Till we do we cannot possibly make a conclusion about Indian capability
7) Indian CDS. can say what he wants, they claimed they had learnt lessons after 2019. Issue is PAF also learns