Pakistan has a Problem | Quwa Group - My Counter Thoughts

[SaadH]

Are they not making newer faster versions?

Vigo Dalla fleet takes precedence

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Are they not making newer faster versions?

Not to the public's knowledge, though it's possible they might be. The fact is that currently a BrahMos equivalent doesn't exist in the Pakistani arsenal.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

Not a single Fatah 2 was used.

Indians say a missile was intercepted which was heading towards Dehli? Wasn't that a Fatah 2?

 

[Watandar]

Exactly. You can be having an objective discussion about a topic and a bunch of 50 IQ Indian cockroaches will start spamming random Twitter posts with zero credibility about an imaginary Fatah 2 missile over Haryana while showing the wreckage of their own S-400 missile or some other very obvious bullshit.

It's like having to babysit the autistic kids.

Please remove the reference to autistic kids. People with mental health issues have enough difficulties in this world as is, especially among jahil desis.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Indians say a missile was intercepted which was heading towards Dehli? Wasn't that a Fatah 2?

Why would a missile heading towards Delhi (which there has been zero credible evidence of in the first place) have to specifically be a Fatah 2?

There's so many other drones, cruise missiles, other ballistic missiles, that it could theoretically be.

 

[the vicious kind]

No Pakistani missile struck any location in India. debris did fall from the sky but, there was no damage reported.
India’s air defense system may not yet be 100% foolproof but, it is rapidly improving due to continuous research and development. The accuracy of Indian air defense systems today is significantly higher than it was five to six years ago, and over the next five to six years, it will become even more advanced and precise.

India’s missile defense shield will eventually become 100% foolproof. That said, I’m not suggesting that China’s air defense system won’t improve as well. They are also continuously advancing their capabilities and are likely to achieve the same level of effectiveness in the future.

Army, Navy, and Air Force are integral components of the air defense system. In fact, their role often goes beyond just interceptor missiles—they can target and destroy enemy missiles at their launch sites, as well as neutralize missile depots and aircraft before they pose a threat.

This is the state of your media and narrative control—your military literally showcased an Indian air defense interceptor (the 9M96E missile) and claimed it was a Pakistani A-100 MLRS


Here they try to pass a brahmos boosters as Fateh 1 . How embrassing


Here they try to pass of an Indian S-125 Pechora as a Fateh 2


Here is another , Indians trying to pass of Akash SAM as intercepted MRLS



Yani Kuch BHI?

 

[Watandar]

Honorable members...please stop feeding these Indian trolls and realize they are part of Indian propaganda effort to rewrite history. Just ignore and discuss Pakistani issues amongst yourselves.

 

[Dalit]

Honorable members...please stop feeding these Indian trolls and realize they are part of Indian propaganda effort to rewrite history. Just ignore and discuss Pakistani issues amongst yourselves.

The pa-jeets are completely ignoring the downing of their fighter jets. They are trying to forget the humiliation by trying to spread nonsense.

 

[lightning f57]

The ONLY way to deter India is through assured offensive retaliation.

This!

The whole doctrine needs to be overwhelming force which causes pain.

The we restrained ourselves brigade need to take a back seat.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

People in the border areas witnessed hundreds of incoming missiles being flawlessly intercepted in the air by India’s interceptor missiles. Every single missile was neutralized with 100% accuracy—no one saw even a single missile bypass the Indian air defense system.

See what happened at Udhampur?

 

[Dalit]

This!

The whole doctrine needs to be overwhelming force which causes pain.

The we restrained ourselves brigade need to take a back seat.

Don't worry. This won't be the last confrontation. I agree that Pakistan should have been more aggressive. A new opportunity will surely present itself. Pakistan needs to learn from this moment and prepare for the next one.

 

[Yasser76]

Excellent summing up here by RUSI

Key Questions about the India-Pakistan Aerial Clashes

There is a risk of drawing the wrong conclusions about Chinese and Western air capabilities from the recent clashes if Indian fighter losses are looked at without close examination of the wider operational picture.

www.rusi.org

 

[Developereo]

That's precisely why a 90 degree steep dive variant of BrahMos was developed to hit Chinese targets behind mountains of Himalayas/Tibet.

A 90 degree turn means that all forward momentum is stopped and the BrahMos starts from scratch in the new direction. This means the interceptors get TWO chances to kill the BrahMos and the target base has in its sights literally a sitting duck right above it.

The BrahMos will be tracked from the moment it is launched and its speed and trajectory continually monitored. With network centric warfare, the potential target bases will know the BrahMos is coming long before the missile actually gets there.

As fast as the BrahMos is, it doesn't hold a candle to the speed of light.

 

[side-winder]

I am very sure the lessons have been taken by the people who matter. Procurements of new systems as announced by GoP is a welcome step. In addition, from what i heard, PAF teams are already in china and turkey for possible options pertaining to CIWS.

So while the concerns are all very valid and thought provoking. We really need to find a solution to a weapon which they can mass produce at will. Im very sure, the PAF will get onto it and improve its interception capabilities in addition to exploring more options in the offensive context for counter detterence.

We did our homework on Rafales very well and we got the results. We'll do it for the stuff that did hurt us in this conflict - not in terms of actual damage but in terms of what and how accurately it could do. The very fact that india was forced to use its best option so early in the conflict after an early hammering they got speaks alot. Unfortunately, we did not test ours against their AD. The results would have been very interesting. Who knows perhaps, indians would have ended up in bigger worries in addition to the problem with their air tactics, ofcourse.

 

[Afif]

Reading all of @arslank01 replies and @Oscar brief responses, overall it’s a great discussion with many great points and self-assessments.

I have a few things to say.

1. About the number of Brahmos that India may have in the inventory. When our war game thing was active, I did OSINT based analysis as thoroughly as I could. The number of brahmos in various config then seemed to be around 800-900 in Indian armed forces inventory. Not in 'thousands'. I could provide detailed evidence backed OSINT that I gathered back then if anyone interested. Production capacity does not necessarily always translate into actual inventory. Though Indian armed forces has a huge recourses compared Pak, it still has many other priorities. And then, there is the usual process of initial procurement plan, approval, order placement, then production and deliveries. Efficiency is not the exact attribute of Indian management and bureaucracy. Though I can see how they could up the number of systems in four digits.

2. About the effectiveness of HQ16EF and HQ-9BE. I disagree with @arslank01 . HQ9BE already has a new smaller interceptor designed to perform quick reaction tasks. Something like IRIS-T SLM maybe better than HQ16EF, it still won’t be a leap in capability over existing systems. Perhaps it wasn’t performance of the system themselves against Indian strikes, rather the number of them available in PAF inventory to be deployed at multiple places. From what I know, PA bought 9 batteries of HQ16 (in two batches over the years. 3+6) 1x battery of HQ-9P. While (from what I know) it is likely PAF only has 1x battery of HQ9BE and 1x battery of HQ16EF. This is very much insufficient given the number of bases and infrastructure PAF has and it need to protect. (Indians targeted 11 air bases) And It is unlikely they could heavily rely on PA HQ16 MRSAM. PA is already large enough and has its own critical assets+infra to protects. I think PAF needs a lot more Ad systems of its own. @Oscar could tell better.

3. The fact is that air bases are vulnerable. Specially when you lack strategic depth. Traditional AD is important but you can’t rely on it as your main defence to keep your large static infra (relatively) intact and preserve your combat power. As inevitably AD will loose the war of economics. It’s not just high-end capabilities like brahmos, it is also about enemy introducing cost effective guided rockets in the equation like Fatah-1. (Pinaka-3) that could be manufactured and inducted in thousands and can always saturate the most advanced AD in town. This is a big problem when you lack strategic depth. Even more so when you are the smaller one with significantly lesser recourses in the fight.

This war of economics and the almost inevitable head to head result between offensive capabilities and expensive defensive systems is something that is perhaps one of the fundamental driving factors behind the doctrinal logic of USAF new CONOP. Perhaps the most reformative one in decades. As they introduced their new concept of operation ACE (agile combat employment), the main emphasis here is on generating combat power while under enemy fire.

You see, it’s not about battle in the air that PAF has mastered with its superior training, doctrine and excellent system integration across domains, rather its about the concept of operations while on the ground.



This is the way. These types of Mobile capabilities coupled with thousands of km of existing road networks. Modifying highways as runways in locations temporarily and constantly, (and keeping this in consideration when planning and building highways and roads) to meet the need for dispersed ops. Then deploying IADS in innovative ways (as part of broader integrated defensive counter-air ops) to deny adversaries ISR capabilities to get a fix (on those temporarily locations of sortie generations) and complete the kill chain. This way AD can better keep up with the war of economics. Even if enemy has large stockpile they can’t shoot what they can’t see.

Cost effective C-UAS solutions (Jammers+AAA guns) is going to play an important role here as I imagine, Adversary will likely attempt to spam areas of interest with cheap recon drones when more traditional ISR platforms are denied by IADS and friendly counter air.

All of these would require extensive complementing CCD (camouflage, concealment and decoy) operations Considering enemy's Space based ISR capabilities will also be at play here.

Of course, I am not advocating for vacating traditional air bases during war. lol. Its given, keeping them operational through quick fixes and rapid repair would also be imperative as significant numbers of sortie generations will naturally occur from there.

The point is, today static air bases and AD systems to defend them alone is not good enough to keep your AF competitive in a fight against peer adversaries. The AF with the most recourses in the world has realised this and introduced ACE (Agile combat employment) as their new CONOP. And perhaps this is where PAF's next doctrinal innovation needs to be.

Here’s a small and partial Visual demo of what I am talking about.

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