Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

@Lion...

why are you laughing??!!

Point 'debris' and 'craters' in the images?!!!

I dont think it is a joke!

If not, STFU!

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistani policy should take into account the very clear economic warfare aspect of things going on. If there goal is to launch infrequent wars to 'deter' and grow an unjustifiable disproportionate economic gap — then Pakistan should target Indian economic infrastructure the moment aggression is shown — oil terminals, ports, connective infrastructure, power plants, etc.

Consider it a sort of conventional MAD in different domains.

Generally speaking, the kinetic domain is just one of several domains we are fighting, and while it's extremely important to be prepared, there are several other domains that cannot be ignored.

I agree with the first part; prepare for economic warfare, but not the targeting of economic infrastructure in a small war as that won’t move the needle in the long term.

The only real way to win economically, closing the gap, is to grow the local economy. China is willing to back us up with weapons. We have to get our economic house in order to close the per capita gap with India. It may take decades, but a smaller and smaller gap is more of a deterrence than anything else. We have seen the world tilt towards rising economic powers on the basis of the or economic potential.

So in warfare, the utility of certain critical infrastructure would be viable targets but not the actual infrastructure itself. Hitting power-lines supplying their military infrastructure with the new Chinese graphite bombs will be useful, but not the power plants.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

You can literally see the damage in the multiple photos - along with the demolished building and the wrecks of the trucks. I’m not sure how someone being “deaf” affects conversations over text but I digress - let’s not start a fight.

no body is questioning the missile hit, damaged confused case!

 

[Maarkhoor]

I’m going to make a lot of people unhappy with this - I’ve been gone a long time and I came back expecting a bit better from PDF regarding Pakistans Fatah Strikes on India. For anyone who’s still trying to argue about their success - they were generally NOT successful.

There is no fanciful reason of secrecy behind there not being any BDA or Sat imagery showing damage - we’ve already seen sat imagery of several targets Pakistan claims to have struck and most of them are undamaged. The reason there isn’t any reporting on it by the Pakistani side is specifically because there are little to no real hits or damage - particularly if we consider Open source information. I’ve gone through nearly 200 videos and images of the missiles landing, of impact craters and of potential interceptions and that’s just one of the reasons I can confidently tell you that the Fatah did not perform too well.

Does this mean the Fatah is a terrible platform? No, it just got used in a real combat scenario for the first time and the PA used like a total of 3-5 TELs, so not many missiles. Moreover the Indian claims of intercepting “all” or even “most” of the missiles are bullshit, notice how they’ve not shown a single wreck or part of a Fatah missile, it’s because they didn’t intercept any to begin with - most of them did land, just not on their targets, they landed within a few kilometers of them. This indicates either Fatah needs improvements or that India had strong jamming, or both - and the PA is already studying that in depth to rectify what went wrong.

The Pakistani response was far smaller than people think it was - there’s could be number of reasons for this - I.e. anticipating a larger ground conflict and wanting to save conventional missiles, the response being cut short by global de-escalation and diplomatic missions etc.

For your info but Fatah series accuracy 01 - 05 CEP.

 

[Lion]

For your info but Fatah series accuracy 01 - 05 CEP.

On paper sure, maybe even In tests - but it did not show that accuracy in real-world combat scenarios. Wether this was because PA tests were too idealistic or because Indian jamming was good, or because we had poor targeting data, we’ll never know, but the bottom line is that Fatah did not hit most of its intended targets - in most cases it doesn’t seem to have been intercepted either, just missed.

We’ve seen some insane CEP claims from even respected scientists and engineers in Pakistan in the past - so one should always take test numbers with a grain of salt.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

On paper sure, maybe even In tests - but it did not show that accuracy in real-world combat scenarios. Wether this was because PA tests were too idealistic or because Indian jamming was good, or because we had poor targeting data, we’ll never know, but the bottom line is that Fatah did not hit most of its intended targets - in most cases it doesn’t seem to have been intercepted either, just missed.

We’ve seen some insane CEP claims from even respected scientists and engineers in Pakistan in the past - so one should always take test numbers with a grain of salt.

@Panzerkiel What is your opinion on this? Jamming seems to be the likely case

 

[Ali_Baba]

The bottom line is:

6. There is little to no evidence that PAF successfully hit S400 - in fact the PAF did not even officially claim as such in the initial press briefing - they only mentioned finding and targeting it (listen to the AVMs words) - which in itself is a big deal. The missiles either missed, or were intercepted, maybe they did minor damage, but that’s all we can prove - all the circumstantial evidence like there not being a radar in Modi’s visit or that dead radar operator is very sketchy. There is proof of PAF having bad targeting co-ordinates for its CM400 missiles (e.g. one of them hit a CRPF hospital - that was because of bad targeting data).

Pakistan certainly has a BDA issue it needs to resolve, but i think it is absurd to suggest that because of this issue, that the Cheese board radar was not destroyed. You have nothing to back up this assertion other than PAF has not provided evidence of its destruction and therefore it could not have been destroyed. It is equally and probably more possible that the radar of the S400 system was destroyed.

The best and only thing you can say on this front, is the destruction of the radar cannot be confirmed.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

On paper sure, maybe even In tests - but it did not show that accuracy in real-world combat scenarios. Wether this was because PA tests were too idealistic or because Indian jamming was good, or because we had poor targeting data, we’ll never know, but the bottom line is that Fatah did not hit most of its intended targets - in most cases it doesn’t seem to have been intercepted either, just missed.

We’ve seen some insane CEP claims from even respected scientists and engineers in Pakistan in the past - so one should always take test numbers with a grain of salt.

how dramatic and how foolish!

 

[Lion]

@Panzerkiel What is your opinion on this? Jamming seems to be the likely case

it’s most likely a combination of multiple factors -

1. First time combat use - real world always has some factors you cannot account for in tests. On paper Russian, Chinese and American weaponry are often matched, but the American weaponry almost always has so much real world combat data that comes along with it - it’s why the west is seemingly surprised with the success of Chinese technology right now - it’s a first time combat debut and a lot of it is showing success.
2. Jamming + Some successful interceptions - in most cases the missiles are not landing far from their targets, however in some they’re several kilometers away.
3. Some bad targeting data.
4. Limited number of missiles used.
5. Missile not being used for its main intended purpose.
6. User error?

 

[Chauvunist]

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[Lion]

Pakistan certainly has a BDA issue it needs to resolve, but i think it is absurd to suggest that because of this issue, that the Cheese board radar was not destroyed. You have nothing to back up this assertion other than PAF has not provided evidence of its destruction and therefore it could not have been destroyed. It is equally and probably more possible that the radar of the S400 system was destroyed.

The best and only thing you can say on this front, is the destruction of the radar cannot be confirmed.

Once again, OSINT automatically does not consider combatants reliable sources - just because PAF says something does not mean it has happened - there were several things wrong with Pakistans press briefings too, several major blunders even - lying is expected, a country has to paint a narrative, it is naive to assume everything PAF or PA says is true.

Everyone’s obviously entitled to an opinion and opinions being skewed because of nationality is 100% normal - but objectively there is no real data or information to suggest that an S400 was damaged or hit - I’m not saying it’s impossible at all, if there is anything concrete that comes out to show that the hit was successful or even possible, I’d be the first one to take it seriously, but so far it seems more unlikely than likely that it happened.

To say that the PAF has not released information or proof regarding an S400 hit for “XYZ” reason is a bad argument, most of the reasons presented are just “hopium” or just very convenient at best, both sides have this issue where they hold the other side to a much higher burden of proof than themselves - if an S400 was hit, the PAF would make a massive deal out of that success - but in reality the PAF has itself not strongly claimed that it hit an S400 - as per the AVMs words in the press brief; they “found” and “targeted” an S400 - he never mentioned “hitting” or “destroying” it. They haven’t shown any proof of destroying it because they don’t have any.

The radar not being present behind Modi or the dead radar operator (it was never confirmed that he was a radar operator or linked to an S400 battery) are all circumstantial pieces of evidence that help the case but don’t prove anything. If India was using these as proof for hitting a Pakistani radar - you’d never take it seriously.

Saying that me and others have “nothing to back up” my assertion is also false - in a world of satellite imagery and cameras and information warfare - the lack of evidence is itself clear evidence.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Once again, OSINT automatically does not consider combatants reliable sources - just because PAF says something does not mean it has happened - there were several things wrong with Pakistans press briefings too, several major blunders even - lying is expected, a country has to paint a narrative, it is naive to assume everything PAF or PA says is true.

Everyone’s obviously entitled to an opinion and opinions being skewed because of nationality is 100% normal - but objectively there is no real data or information to suggest that an S400 was damaged or hit - I’m not saying it’s impossible at all, if there is anything concrete that comes out to show that the hit was successful or even possible, I’d be the first one to take it seriously, but so far it seems more unlikely than likely that it happened.

To say that the PAF has not released information or proof regarding an S400 hit for “XYZ” reason is a bad argument, most of the reasons presented are just “hopium” or just very convenient at best, both sides have this issue where they hold the other side to a much higher burden of proof than themselves - if an S400 was hit, the PAF would make a massive deal out of that success - but in reality the PAF has itself not strongly claimed that it hit an S400 - as per the AVMs words in the press brief; they “found” and “targeted” an S400 - he never mentioned “hitting” or “destroying” it. They haven’t shown any proof of destroying it because they don’t have any.

The radar not being present behind Modi or the dead radar operator (it was never confirmed that he was a radar operator or linked to an S400 battery) are all circumstantial pieces of evidence that help the case but don’t prove anything. If India was using these as proof for hitting a Pakistani radar - you’d never take it seriously.

Saying that me and others have “nothing to back up” my assertion is also false - in a world of satellite imagery and cameras and information warfare - the lack of evidence is itself clear evidence.

how old are you?!!!

 

[side-winder]

View attachment 132822View attachment 132823View attachment 132824

Bro, said vehicles were empty and in a "dispersed" state. What makes them expensive is the equipment installed inside them. Making them a full fledged mobile C2 center. Also when they are operationalized, there are atleast 5 vehicles which make up entire system functioning. 01 vehicle for power and comm, 02 vehicles positioned side by side for Ops room, 01 for staff and officers, 01 for IT PCs / eqpt.

Without the equipment installed, they are just simple trucks with prime movers. Hope that helps

 

[Lion]

Bro, said vehicles were empty and in a "dispersed" state. What makes them expensive is the equipment installed inside them. Making them a full fledged mobile C2 center. Also when they are operationalized, there atleast 5 vehicles which make up entire system functioning. 01 vehicle for power and comm, 02 vehicles positioned side by side for Ops room, 01 for staff and officers, 01 for IT PCs.

Without the equipment installed, they are just simple trucks with prime movers. Hope that helps

Apart from your word - what proof do we have that they were empty at the time of the strike? PAF made a pretty big deal out of having them ready and taking delivery of them, did they take delivery of the fully equipped trucks and then also took everything out right after?

I would definitely hope they were but this doesn’t really mean anything - they still got hit - if they were fully equipped, they’d still have been hit. The building complex Next to them still got demolished. The underlying issue remains.

 

[Princeps]

how dramatic and how foolish!

If you have any counter arguments present them respectfully or stop polluting threads. I have personally never seen you contribute anything of value to the discussion, while the person you are insulting is a respected long time member.