Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[Oscar]

Well that's fucking disappointing, I thought they'd finally learnt how to make low level things but seems like it's all Chinese tech

No
Its practical policy
Unless you have open coffers not everything can be indigenous. Pakistan prefers to only go indigenous when it is not available or if it is substantially more cost effective to do so or someone is going to make commissions.

Pakistan has been making UaVs since the 90s based on its own design.
First Shahpar was designed and assembled under a KFC.
Satuma was building designs and exporting to Sri Lanka for their LTTE campaigns.

But design takes time
Testing takes time

Time is money

On the other hand if someone is giving you a ready product for a much less cost which you can start building day 1 at scale and even sell it.
Just makes more financial sense

 

[Metal 0-1]

more mobile compared to Baburs MLV.

Mind elaborating what makes Babur TEL less mobile?

 

[aati]

As a starter, May be PA is trying to adopt\replicate PLA Rocket force model.
But with less money and already proven platform that can be produced in numbers.
If PAF can learn air tactics from PLAAF why not PA?

 

[PakShaheen_79]

If terrain hugging feature is as good as in Tomahawk then speed is no worry but for me concering factor is less than 500 KG class warhead. Pakistani warhead are usually based on cheaper TNT option instead of more sophisticated but expensive explosives like RDX, HMX, PETN, and various PBX (Polymer Bonded Explosive) etc. TNT can be stored for longer preiod of time, easy to handle (high chemical stabilitiy), and is cheaper option but drawback is its lower yield compared to other options. 2ndly, it seems going to sub-sonic crusie missile route was more of a compulsion than choice after US sanctioned Pakistani missile program heavily particularly ballistic missile development where Pakistan's quest of making advanced high-speed rocket motors were sighted a core reason.

 

[abdulbarijan]

A mach 0.7 missiles can not be answer to a mach 3-5 missile.

- Nope, a cruise missile is indeed an answer to a cruise missile. Many ways to skin a cat, one relies on terrain hugging, evading radar, the other on sheer speed.

- India with its S-400, Spyder, Akash etc. was not able to completely defend against the basic Fatah systems, what happens when you introduce medium range terrain hugging cruise missiles in to the mix?

- Even Israel with its most modern AD systems wasn't able to defend against the Irani systems, add to the equation that neither is the Indian air space that well defended, nor does India or Pakistan have the luxury of time Israel enjoys against opposition which has to fire huge salvos because they have to survive multiple layers of AD's of multiple countries as well as the USN ships, only to face multiple layers of AD from the Israeli side and still they were able to hit their targets.

-Whatever you may think of this development, it is still a step forward in the right direction, for 30 odd years both countries had missiles and noone was willing to use them, now that India has started to do so, the gloves have to come off.
One has to be practical and resourceful. Are there options available where we can directly import supersonic cruise missiles off the shelf? If not, what kinda time frame does it take to develop a supersonic cruise missile? and what to do in the meantime ?
Like I said, you become resourceful, and field things that are threatening and dangerous to the opposition immediately, so that you can up the ante as well until the time where we have something similar in our inventory. Also, the mere fact that Tomahawk is still in service with the US shows that the superpower of this time, thinks that such missile/tech is still relevant in the modern day.

Regards.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

No
Its practical policy
Unless you have open coffers not everything can be indigenous. Pakistan prefers to only go indigenous when it is not available or if it is substantially more cost effective to do so or someone is going to make commissions.

Pakistan has been making UaVs since the 90s based on its own design.
First Shahpar was designed and assembled under a KFC.
Satuma was building designs and exporting to Sri Lanka for their LTTE campaigns.

But design takes time
Testing takes time

Time is money

On the other hand if someone is giving you a ready product for a much less cost which you can start building day 1 at scale and even sell it.
Just makes more financial sense

I don't dispute any of this, but there is benefit in having a sovereign control over critical military tech, at least one that are within grasps.

If the deal involves that we essentially own the IP and total operational freedom where it essentially becomes our own product I don't mind, but if not, I still feel it's disappointing if we are merely customers reliant on China, with some license to sell it.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

- Nope, a cruise missile is indeed an answer to a cruise missile. Many ways to skin a cat, one relies on terrain hugging, evading radar, the other on sheer speed.

- India with its S-400, Spyder, Akash etc. was not able to completely defend against the basic Fatah systems, what happens when you introduce medium range terrain hugging cruise missiles in to the mix?

- Even Israel with its most modern AD systems wasn't able to defend against the Irani systems, add to the equation that neither is the Indian air space that well defended, nor does India or Pakistan have the luxury of time Israel enjoys against opposition which has to fire huge salvos because they have to survive multiple layers of AD's of multiple countries as well as the USN ships, only to face multiple layers of AD from the Israeli side and still they were able to hit their targets.

-Whatever you may think of this development, it is still a step forward in the right direction, for 30 odd years both countries had missiles and noone was willing to use them, now that India has started to do so, the gloves have to come off.
One has to be practical and resourceful. Are there options available where we can directly import supersonic cruise missiles off the shelf? If not, what kinda time frame does it take to develop a supersonic cruise missile? and what to do in the meantime ?
Like I said, you become resourceful, and field things that are threatening and dangerous to the opposition immediately, so that you can up the ante as well until the time where we have something similar in our inventory. Also, the mere fact that Tomahawk is still in service with the US shows that the superpower of this time, thinks that such missile/tech is still relevant in the modern day.

Regards.

A subsonic and supersonic cruise missile are two separate & distinct categories. Your point makes sense that there's utility in subsonics but it's still not comparable.

This is more equivalent to India's Nirbhay

 

[abdulbarijan]

A subsonic and supersonic cruise missile are two separate & distinct categories. Your point makes sense that there's utility in subsonics but it's still not comparable.

This is more equivalent to India's Nirbhay

My point wasn't specifically relevant to the "type" or "category" of missile per say. My take is that in the absence of a supersonic cruise missile, as well as no real candidate that can export such technology off the shelf to Pakistan .. modifying Harbah/Babur etc. in the meanwhile to up the ante is a step in the right direction.

An opponent that is literally your neighbor, has a huge border with you, has to defend not against just you, but also an up-and-coming superpower , whose AD you just penetrated a few months ago with your systems that aren't exactly your top of the line systems, Yeah considering all these factors .. something like this is an answer, because now you're being much more threatening to the enemy and are now employing means that give you better chances to penetrate the enemy AD and hit their targets without risking your pilots/aircrafts .. (compared to the previous skirmish)

 

[Rational Philosopher]

My point wasn't specifically relevant to the "type" or "category" of missile per say. My take is that in the absence of a supersonic cruise missile, as well as no real candidate that can export such technology off the shelf to Pakistan .. modifying Harbah/Babur etc. in the meanwhile to up the ante is a step in the right direction.

An opponent that is literally your neighbor, has a huge border with you, has to defend not against just you, but also an up-and-coming superpower , whose AD you just penetrated a few months ago with your systems that aren't exactly your top of the line systems, Yeah considering all these factors .. something like this is an answer, because now you're being much more threatening to the enemy and are now employing means that give you better chances to penetrate the enemy AD and hit their targets without risking your pilots/aircrafts .. (compared to the previous skirmish)

Well I would dispute the fact that there's no real candidate to export such technology because China does have the YJ-12 (CM-302)

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Well I would dispute the fact that there's no real candidate to export such technology because China does have the YJ-12 (CM-302)

PN is already using CM-302 and it's capable of being launched from aerial platforms. HD-1 with 290 KM range is another option in supersonic cruise missile category. Let's see how PAF respond to Air launched Brahmos, this Fatah-4 is Army's weapon and will be operated by army units/commanders.

 

[Metal 0-1]

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[Rational Philosopher]

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Does the Indian Nirbhay not have a retractable intake?

 

[side-winder]

A subsonic and supersonic cruise missile are two separate & distinct categories. Your point makes sense that there's utility in subsonics but it's still not comparable.

This is more equivalent to India's Nirbhay

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. BrahMos has to climb all the way up to 40-50 K altitude to get to Mach 2-3. Makes the detection part easier at least.

On the other hand, if you have a sub-sonic system with very low altitude flight profile it's very much more likely to evade the radar detection. You miss detection you miss any chance of interception.

In my opinion, SCALP performed better than BrahMos in may. Although brahMos was much more used in numbers than SCALP - primarily through ground launchers.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Does the Indian Nirbhay not have a retractable intake?

View attachment 140518

no sir it has that slanted intake on bottom as seen in image..

 

[Great Mal]

Does the Indian Nirbhay not have a retractable intake?

View attachment 140518

Nirbhay doesn't have its intake sticking out as it's a newer missile so it incorporates the new stuff without the need of having a retractable engine intake (its fitted into the main shell with a small cutout).

This new missile is likely Babur added to conventional role.

Pakistan has a long road to catch up on its conventional inventory of missiles.

So expect some other missiles which were likely reserved for nuke role shifting to conventional.

All in all a decade too late.