Pakistan Turkey Defence Updates

[hussain0216]

Agree !!! They are perfect partners right now. Pakistan wants high technology to build her local industry through knowledge transfer and is willing to be a large buying customer for that. Turkey wants customers who will buy big and also can help keep costs of her products lower due to lower Pakistani labour costs.

I think it's also a question of 'back up'

Both countries have a historical connection, even though both country's today are very different i think they have come to a understanding that when and if the 'shi-t hits the fan' they may require a reliable partner to support and supply them

Steps are being taken to support each other in that regard,

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

If the news are true, it means...


- Pakistan is poised to become a long-term industrial Tier 1 Partner of Türkiye.

- The Pakistani industrial sector will contribute to the program's sustainability for decades.

- The production of components, final assembly of aircraft, and regional support and maintenance operations will be conducted in Pakistan.

- This will generate a consistent revenue stream for the Pakistani Military-Industrial Complex.

- I see potential for collaboration on future helicopter initiatives.

- A substantial transfer of expertise to Pakistan is anticipated, particularly in the establishment, maintenance, and strategic planning of modern industrial facilities and infrastructure related to research and development activities.

- This could serve as a catalyst for developing a comprehensive ecosystem in Pakistan, enabling the nation to meet its requirements independently of international partners.

- Economies of scale effect. Cheaper aircrafts for Pakistan and Türkiye.

- There is an increased motivation for other countries to choose our product, as doing so would mean receiving the goodwill of two significant nations in the region.

- Türkiye and Pakistan have similar needs and requirements creating a smoother work process.

Very well elaborated. I'd like to add that there are also huge strategic benefits in the event of a country at war. Production lines won't be closed.

 

[Yasser76]

It seems like they may well do with Helicopters that they have done very successfully with Ships via MILGEM project. Joint manufacturing and passing on to Pak of skills and knowledge to build similar ships in Pak. PN really did lead the way here

 

[Quwa]

You know I am going to be that guy. The timing of your post is very meaningful to me since the Pak-Turk JWG is this week. And I have seen MoUs and promises for the past 10 JWGs, every 6 months. This helicopter discussion has also been going on for a long time. Local production of Gokbey was offered at one point. Unfortunately, none of these obviously went anywhere because our side only wakes up every 6 months for these meetings. I don't expect this time to be any different. But I can always be happily proven wrong.

There's one potential saving grace here and that is the PAA is (or was) relatively tuned in. It's just that they don't typically get priority vs. armour and artillery as, bar COIN/CT, the aviation leg hasn't been seen as a high-impact force until relatively recently.

IMO... if the Army wants to push ahead with a solution and a co-production effort is the most feasible way to go, they'll do it.

But I think that opens up the question of who on our side would manage a helicopter project. I doubt TAI sees PAC as an optimal partner at this point. If GHQ signs on, this might be something that goes to TAI Pakistan and some NESCOM-spun entity.

 

[JamD]

There's one potential saving grace here and that is the PAA is (or was) relatively tuned in. It's just that they don't typically get priority vs. armour and artillery as, bar COIN/CT, the aviation leg hasn't been seen as a high-impact force until relatively recently.

IMO... if the Army wants to push ahead with a solution and a co-production effort is the most feasible way to go, they'll do it.

But I think that opens up the question of who on our side would manage a helicopter project. I doubt TAI sees PAC as an optimal partner at this point. If GHQ signs on, this might be something that goes to TAI Pakistan and some NESCOM-spun entity.

TA has a relationship with PAC as dysfunctional as it is. It would be prohibitively expensive to spin up a new factory. I don't know how much clout PAA actually has in these JWG interactions. My sense is very little.

Atak2 might be a real possibility though. Produced at PAC for PAA. That's my optimistic read.

 

[Oscar]

You know I am going to be that guy. The timing of your post is very meaningful to me since the Pak-Turk JWG is this week. And I have seen MoUs and promises for the past 10 JWGs, every 6 months. This helicopter discussion has also been going on for a long time. Local production of Gokbey was offered at one point. Unfortunately, none of these obviously went anywhere because our side only wakes up every 6 months for these meetings. I don't expect this time to be any different. But I can always be happily proven wrong.

Well - the meetings are just an excuse for golf and dinners.

But the actual reason for the delays isn’t just waking up - it’s deliberate over promises on the Pakistan side based on inability to deliver anything when it comes to resources.

The one building the relationship will go out based on orders by superiors and assurances by the superiors or their own sycophants. They will make enough efforts to get interest and drive to the point of a MoU.

Then, when it’s signed it comes to the reality that there is nothing but words to offer from Pakistan the MoU is revised to reduce Pakistan’s share or extend timelines - usually both - and we get another MoU, associated rounds of tikkas and seekh kebab dinners - and rinse and repeat until something like a SKD Akinci or CKD TB2 is sent by Baykar - which is then touted as jointly produced in showrooms created by interior designers paid rs200000 at rs50000 per sq ft because that designer is related to someone - and we have #progress.

 

[Quwa]

TA has a relationship with PAC as dysfunctional as it is. It would be prohibitively expensive to spin up a new factory. I don't know how much clout PAA actually has in these JWG interactions. My sense is very little.

Atak2 might be a real possibility though. Produced at PAC for PAA. That's my optimistic read.

That or TAI (and by extension Leonardo) is ready to pass on the AW129 platform.

The reason why I'm not sold on the T929 being an option right now is that (in my past interactions with TAI) a helicopter project would've been tied with the engine.

The TEI TS1400 (which would work on the T625 and, theoretically, T129) is getting certified by around next year. So, any joint-project is going to be a 5-6-ton platform.

It could be that in lieu of the T629, there's a thought to make the T129 an ITAR-free thing (possibly easier than spinning up a whole new project).

The other possibility - less likely, but plausible - is that there's an idea somewhere to take a single TS1400 and make a lightweight munna-nennu helicopter out of it.

 

[Zarvan]

That or TAI (and by extension Leonardo) is ready to pass on the AW129 platform.

The reason why I'm not sold on the T929 being an option right now is that (in my past interactions with TAI) a helicopter project would've been tied with the engine.

The TEI TS1400 (which would work on the T625 and, theoretically, T129) is getting certified by around next year. So, any joint-project is going to be a 5-6-ton platform.

It could be that in lieu of the T629, there's a thought to make the T129 an ITAR-free thing (possibly easier than spinning up a whole new project).

The other possibility - less likely, but plausible - is that there's an idea somewhere to take a single TS1400 and make a lightweight munna-nennu helicopter out of it.

Turkish helicopters have entered mass production. I seriously doubt they would start mass production of their helicopter engine without getting it certified. @Hakikat ve Hikmet

 

[Quwa]

Turkish helicopters have entered mass production. I seriously doubt they would start mass production of their helicopter engine without getting it certified. @Hakikat ve Hikmet

They were fine with relying on US engines in the near-term. The Turkish engine was a long-term project, independent of the helicopters.

 

[Zarvan]

They were fine with relying on US engines in the near-term. The Turkish engine was a long-term project, independent of the helicopters.

Yes they are developing several engines. But the one they are developing for helicopter has entered mass production. Those meant for jets are still have to pass trials and tests.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkish helicopters have entered mass production. I seriously doubt they would start mass production of their helicopter engine without getting it certified. @Hakikat ve Hikmet

TUSAŞ Engine Industry Inc. (TEI) CEO Mahmut F. Akşit stated the initiation of serial production for the TS-1400 engine (17 Dec 2023).

https://turdef.com/article/tei-starts-ts-1400-turboshaft-engine-serial-production

As for civilian usage, certification is required. According to the company official, the certification of the engine is under way and is scheduled to be completed by 2026. It requires to pass a series of tests.

In the latest endurance tests, the TUSAS Engine Industry’s (TEI) TS1400 turboshaft engine reached 1740 shp emergency power, setting a new record. Within the scope of EASA certification, TS1400 has completed EASA CS-E 740, an endurance test involving six hours of wear-down 15 times consecutively.

WDS 2024: Turkey's TEI advances with its engine development

Turkish engine manufacturer Tusaş Engine Industries (TEI) has showcased its TEI-TS1400 and TEI-TF6000 engines at the World Defense Show (WDS) 2024 held in Riyadh from 4...

www.janes.com

TEI Starts TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine Serial Production | TURDEF

TEI prepares for TS-1400 turboshaft engine serial production for helicopters. TEI CEO Mahmut F. Akşit has announced the development.

turdef.com

TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Breaks New Power Record | TURDEF

In the latest endurance tests, the TUSAS Engine Industry’s (TEI) TS1400 turboshaft engine reached 1740 shp emergency power, setting a new record.

turdef.com

 

[Indos]

Agree !!! They are perfect partners right now. Pakistan wants high technology to build her local industry through knowledge transfer and is willing to be a large buying customer for that. Turkey wants customers who will buy big and also can help keep costs of her products lower due to lower Pakistani labour costs.

I dont think so, Indonesia buy lot of Turkish defense lately, but based on our respected Industry analist and also former Jane Defense representatif for Indonesia that has insider information. Turkey transfer of technology does not included critical technology.

No one will give away their jewel technologies

 

[Samurai]

That or TAI (and by extension Leonardo) is ready to pass on the AW129 platform.

The reason why I'm not sold on the T929 being an option right now is that (in my past interactions with TAI) a helicopter project would've been tied with the engine.

The TEI TS1400 (which would work on the T625 and, theoretically, T129) is getting certified by around next year. So, any joint-project is going to be a 5-6-ton platform.

It could be that in lieu of the T629, there's a thought to make the T129 an ITAR-free thing (possibly easier than spinning up a whole new project).

The other possibility - less likely, but plausible - is that there's an idea somewhere to take a single TS1400 and make a lightweight munna-nennu helicopter out of it.

Also might be possible that Turkey or TEI is looking to share its co-production with its co-partner Pakistan, because of the cheap labor here and thus reducing the costs at their end?

Now economics is not my major but this is a possibility in light of the recent deal between Turkey-Pakistan to co-manufacture 155mm artillery shells and looking at where Turkey is going, I think they are planning to diversify their supply chain so that in the worst case Turkey is at a conflict, so it keeps getting its supply chain flowing. Pakistan might want to get a fair deal or benefit out of it in the end.

 

[Fox]

Not sure how much stock to place in a discussion that happened at a JWG. I am still recovering from the PAC announcement to co-produce ARJ-21/C909 with AVIC.

What I see as positive here is that PA appears interested to shore up its aviation wing while retaining some mixture of local production. This is a step in the right direction and one that is overdue. It is too early to say if this effort would go anywhere but it does have a fair chance given the development of TS1400.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I dont think so, Indonesia buy lot of Turkish defense lately, but based on our respected Industry analist and also former Jane Defense representatif for Indonesia that has insider information. Turkey transfer of technology does not included critical technology.

No one will give away their jewel technologies

Unless they receive some "jewel" technologies in return. Turkey does badly need some "jewel" technologies to thwart some clear present existential threats imposed upon them by the "usual suspects"....