Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder Bags Another Fighter Deal, Media Says; India’s LCA Tejas Banks On Massive IAF Contract

[Jaeger]

Yes I know that, mikoyan did helped China to design JF-17, it's a first fully indigenous project by China so what's problem if Russia help China to design JF-17, that is similar to your Tejas, design and had a feasibility study by French for you in late 80s

Knowing this would you also claim, that JF17 is not indigenous to China?

We already know, it uses a Russian Engine, Russian cannon and British Martin Baker Ejection seat.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Knowing this would you also claim, that JF17 is not indigenous to China?

We already know, it uses a Russin Engine, Russian cannon and British Martin Baker Ejection seat.

So China improve JF-17 a lot after Russian help what's wrong with it ?

Can I tell you American engine and Russian cannon and also ejection seat from Martin Baker on your out of this universe Tejas so

 

[MastanKhan]

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[Harbyharb]

Good.

I do know the meaning for JF.

But do you know it was Russian Mikoyan and not PAC Kamra, which provided significant Design support for JF 17 project under Mig 33 designation.

Mikoyan joins Chengdu on fighter - 6/21/1995 - Flight Global

Article

web.archive.org

Mikoyan's actual impact on the final iterations of the JF-17 is very limited. Upon CAC making the inquiry with Mikoyan about modifying the RD-33 engine for their project, Mikoyan pitched the MiG-33, a completely non-related independent project by Mikoyan designed for Soviet VVS domestic use, as an aerodynamic and structural recommendation in an attempt to participate and profit from the program, even taking a leading role.

The actual design features that the JF-17 adopted from the Mikoyan suggestion include only the leading-edge extension design on the first 2 prototypes which have a slim, conservative, concaved shape with less pronounced effect. Follow-up prototypes and the production model went with a larger more radical design by CAC itself.

With the RD-93 replaced by the WS-13 by Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation (GAIC), which comes with a significant amount of improvements from an actual digital FADEC typically missing from Russian engines to new turbine blade materials that extended service life, the actual Russian influence in the current JF-17 is almost negligible. Honestly speaking Northrop Grumman had more of an influence since the forward fuselage still largely follows the original design layout from the Super Seven project.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

I quote reality.
As revealed in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

Pepe Escobar: Russia and Iran Brace for War as Leaked Israeli F-35 Attack SHOCKS World What do you guys think?

LESS THAN A THIRD CAN EVEN MEAN JUST 10% OF F35S BEING OPERATIONAL AND ABLE TO FLY.
MUCH MORE A LEMON THAN SOMETHING TO FRIGHTEN FOLKS WITH

PROBABLY AS USEFUL AS THE PATRIOT AND THAAD RUBBISH RIYADH PAID TO PROTECT AND FAIL TO PROTECT OIL INSTALLATIONS IN KSA

And as demonstrated so clearly in KSA the Aegis and Patriot systems defending Saudi a joke as the Aegis and Patriot cannot even detect a few sub Mach cruise missiles not to talk of taking them down. Even to now, no one sure where those came from and who flown them. Despite overlapping coverage of those Patriot and Aegis systems.

And now easy peasy and no sweat in taking out Mach 3 missiles effortlessly out of Ukraine sky

The American systems dunno where the slow poke missiles came from and if missiles did not go off with bangs leaving smoke and fire, might not even have existed at all

New sales pitch? US makes the world’s ‘finest’ anti-air systems, but sometimes they just don’t work, Pompeo explains
Saudi air defenses like Patriot & Aegis don’t match their advertised properties, unfit for real combat – Russian Army (MAP)

Reported for doing off topic discussion and trolling

 

[kaku]

Oh bhai we have no vast aerospace industries as you claim to be have in your mighty Tejas and we are not assembling JF-17 but we are manufacturing in house, we bought cnc and other manufacturing machines from China to produce at home, we don't claim JF-17 our indigenous jet, only some fan boys thinks that do you know what's the meaning of JF?

1-design and feasibility study done by France

2- fly by wire system develop and tested by Lockheed Martin on F16s Vista in mid 90s (you only improve fly by wire system after 98 nuke test)

3- landing gear developed by Boeing

4-avionic comes from various sources, USA/France/Israeli and some Indian (mission computer), hydrolics system is also comes from USA

5- weapons are also comes from various sources USA/French/Israeli/Russian and some Indian

6- composite technology came also from EU, I mean you get lots of help from EU for building composite aerostructure for your mighty Tejas

So what's YOURS in your out of this universe Tejas

I am on mobile so won’t be able to give a detailed reply, but almost all points are wrong

AMAGB, actuators were developed and certified in 90s as part of Project DALIA. Hydraulic pumps might be is from eaton , but the system is totally Indian.

AMAGB for LCA | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gear Box (AMAGB) is a critical Line Replacement Unit (LRU) and forms a part of Secondary Power System (SPS) of LCA Tejas. AMAGB is incorporated with technical features, such as, lightweight, compact, high speed, single input and multi-output gearbox of aeronautical...

www.drdo.gov.in

And no we never imported autoclaves from Europe for curing, only resins was imported.

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But now even resins going to be produced in India

Jindal Advanced Materials ties up with Italy's MAE to invest Rs 2,700 cr in carbon fibre plant - The Economic Times

m-economictimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

I am on mobile so won’t be able to give a detailed reply, but almost all points are wrong

AMAGB, actuators were developed and certified in 90s as part of Project DALIA. Hydraulic pumps might be is from eaton , but the system is totally Indian.

AMAGB for LCA | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

Aircraft Mounted Accessory Gear Box (AMAGB) is a critical Line Replacement Unit (LRU) and forms a part of Secondary Power System (SPS) of LCA Tejas. AMAGB is incorporated with technical features, such as, lightweight, compact, high speed, single input and multi-output gearbox of aeronautical...

www.drdo.gov.in

View attachment 41760

View attachment 41761

And no we never imported autoclaves from Europe for curing, only resins was imported.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

View attachment 41766
But now even resins going to be produced in India

Jindal Advanced Materials ties up with Italy's MAE to invest Rs 2,700 cr in carbon fibre plant - The Economic Times

m-economictimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Radome is comes from UK you can't make graphite Radome by yourself

 

[CallSignMaverick]

@CallSignMaverick @Jaeger @Bhojpuranchali @kaku

Dear Bakhts, Here is a simple test of your IQ, I see you guys are denying an established reality that Pakistan / PAC owns JF-17 project. Then see below photos and answer me that If Pakistan don't own JF-17 project then why its selling it to other countries ? How come its even possible or make sense unless you are the owner of the platform. Try to use all your brain power and answer it If you can't then atleast have some guts to accept reality. We can't educate you unless you close your eyes on reality.

View attachment 41653

View attachment 41654

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So what do you think?
my question is, Now do you agree that PAC co-owns JF-17 project ? I can't school you on anything else unless we settle on the established facts. Its your choice.

The same reason how Indian companies are able to export Israeli drones and guns etc to Israel and other countries through joint venture manufacturing facilities in India. That doesn't grant them the design IP.

 

[Guru Dutt]

hahaha, only bakhts got to know that their entire inventory including so called mighty SU-30s were no match against JF-17s on 27th Feb 2019

Tejas were safe, kept far from action LOL!

see what i said about them @Bhojpuranchali he and many others like are almost most arguing here are like that ....... inka level hi alag hai they are smoking some real good stuff

 

[kaku]

Now you changed the whole goalpost and shifted to radome?

BTW, it’s not graphite but quartz. And wide band quartz radome for LCA Mk2 and AMCA is already in development.

Radome is comes from UK you can't make graphite Radome by yourself

 

[vkdindian]

This thread has gone completely to dogs. And there seems to be no end in sight since there is no way to prove anything claimed by both the sides.
JF17 is Paksiatni enough or Tejas is Indian, isn’t of much significance, if they do the job they were meant to do.
JF program was conceived and executed very well by PAF and they leveraged whatever know how they had to get the aircraft at that time. Obviously they didn’t have the technical capability to do it themselves and China did that for them. How much tech they have transferred to Paksiatn is anybody’s guess. There is no doubt though that China is likely to withhold key technologies to themselves.

Tejas was conceived well but executed very poorly for the initial part. Till someone woke up and said enough is enough. Goals for Tejas were not only to meet the IAF requirements, but also full fill the desire to develop homegrown aircraft capability. India did take help from outside to fill many gaps. The current version of Tejas stands very well and meets most of those goals.

Was it criminal to get outside help? Depends on what side is one looking at this aspect. Even China copied and plagiarised Russian stuff with impunity to get going. It is no open secret that German scientists helped US and its allies to develop key technologies after WWII. Hence, taking high pedestal depends on the stage of one’s capability.

Both the programs have achieved the respective goals, with Tejas being behind if we look at the starting point. However, the current version of Tejas is far better than what it would have been at the starting point. So the time lost has been covered up by Tejas MK IA being fairly well equipped for the current times.

Exporting a fighter isn’t just about its capability but Geo politics too. Western nations have a motive to not allow anyone else to enter that market. Heck, they didn’t allow even Sweden to sell Gripen, inspite of being a very capable platform.

I don’t see either JF or Tejas making any significant sales due to the same reasons. JF has been sold in small numbers to the nations where China has a little clout. That’s it.

Combat proven, fully indigenous, out of the world, trailer mounted, smoke generating machine, Samosa like etc etc are endless and meaningless words thrown around.

The thread was started based on a rumour, peddled by Eurasiantimes, a not so reliable media source. Similar threads of sales to Argentina, Malaysia, Srilanka ended up in thin air.

Request @Waz, @Musings to consider locking this thread, since it hasn’t added anything of value except lofty claims and trolling.

 

[JohnWick]

no only Jet engine , ejection seat , HMD/HUD , Radar or certain missiles are fom other nations like UK , USA & Israel or france rest every thing of LCA is designed and developed and made in india while

but in case of JF17 all research and devlopment of all its parts other than engoine was done by chnese in china and so china still has all the IP rights of JF17
while only body panells are rivitted and body assmebbelled and panited with CKD kits from China at PAC Kamra

so LCA & JF17 or for that matter Su30 MKI and there level of localization is no where equal to each other

India is making suzuky engines for almost 40 years today and improoving and coustomizzing them according to indian needs whats more we for last 5 years sell more suzuki cars in india than in Japan or any other market ... dose that makes Suzuki brand Indian .. or the cars suzuki makes in India indian ...??????

this was your logic ... see the point even if you stlll think your right then so be it

LCA not worth anything thats why you keep dying on the migs rather to procure that tejas

You don't see F-16 DNA in jf-17 and Mirage 2000 DNA in Tejas both these jets are custom made by outputs of their airforce.

That's the same cause as Indians saying Land rover is an Indian brand cz his shares were bought by Tata in 2008 Lol

 

[kaku]

Air cooled verssion has less TERMs which are more bulkier and less power effcient as much of there volume goes or is utilized in heat transfer when wind energy is used to control heat /thermal energy .... but in liquid cooling TERMs are made highly energy and heat efficient as they can mange and tranfer heat enery wia liquid ti radiator

just like your Motor bikes there is a reason why most multi cyilder bikes are liquid cooled not air cooled apply same logic here

in a fighter a nose cone has a very limited space but if its taken by large heat decipating fins instead of a small radiator that manges more terms at the same time will for sure wont be as efficient as its liquid cooled verssion no matter how you try to convince yourself

You are quite right in this regard



Total power is 4 kVA, if we consider 0.8 power factor, that’s around 3.2 kW.

Mind you, this is not thermal load, but total peak power.

Considering 30%, thermal load would be around 1 kW, that’s why you don’t need liquid cooling in Block III.

 

[Guru Dutt]

LCA not worth anything thats why you keep dying on the migs rather to procure that tejas

You don't see F-16 DNA in jf-17 and Mirage 2000 DNA in Tejas both these jets are custom made by outputs of their airforce.

That's the same cause as Indians saying Land rover is an Indian brand cz his shares were bought by Tata in 2008 Lol

OK lets do point wise

1.worth LCA has for India

a)LCA is priceless for Indian aerospace Industry cause it helped us setup enitre ecosystem from jet propulssion lab to other allied labs to do R&D and manufacture cockpit instrumentation to mission compouters to its FBW/avionics and LRUs entire body & baody panelles to wirring harnesses to landing gears and hydrolicks and acuaters

b) LCA also tught us many diffrent lessons in how to mange & execute big ticket projects which no western or russia would ever teach us

c) LCA project tought us the value of internal R&D and how to keep or make or concieve big or for that matter achievable goals and get them and cooprate with other international players and how they sabotage your efforts in the name of so called coopration

d) last but not the least what started as a light fighter for limited strike and light combat or air interception come escort roles deu to IAFs constant goal posts changing and upgrading requirment everythine last requirements were intigrated in LCA prototype ... the humble LCA morphed into Worlds lightest Multi Role Fighter

which on interan fuel only has a respectable ferry range 1350Km
with 5200Kg weapons load carrying capacity
and is caable to make takeoff and landing on very short runways
in any weather day or night
and has a capability to be supersonick in all altitudes
and has 40% of its body wieth made of carbon composites
90% of skin area made of carbon composites making it lighter and easy to mantain
while still having a very potent onboard self protection & EW suit& AESA radar


2. Now sure LCA dose not has Mirage DNA as its a Crancked compounded tailless DELTA with high mounted wing design while Mirage 2000 is a classicall Delta with a low mounted Delta wing design and it is now where near F16 in design terms

besides LCA was made into its current design so it has a very low wing loading but still can change alititued very fast and with high speed and has a very high digree of +/- G limits tollaration and still very agile as it is aerodynamicklly unstable yet has Relaxed Static cabality deu to a very good qudrapell FBW based on a great Mission compouters and DATABUS

3. lastly just cause indian corporates like TATA which have more worth than entire pakistani GDP dose not mean they are the only ones in india we still have Relaince, Birla's , Singhanias , BAJAJ , TVS ,Wipro , L&T or Infosis , Adani just to name a few which all have almost the same wealth or maybe more


but But But indian Foriegn or defnce policy is not based on what these corportates think or want to do buissness with a perticular fav nation otherwise today latin america and africa or south east asia would have been indians most trusted allies not Russia, France , Israel , Japan or USA-UK or European nations for that matter

now the point is most of the fashion brands , Hotel chains and even auto manufacturers of USA , UK , France and Italy are owned by Indian firms like Bajaj owns KTM or TATA ownd DAEWOO TRUCKs or reliance owns M&S & HM or ZARA to name a few

we indians are not stupid like you guys we know the value of marketting and brand value thats the main reason even pakistanies in UAE < Turkiye , Greece , Europe , Russia , UK or USA call themselfs as Indian when they go to a posh Night club or a decent resturant or want a good job

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

OK lets do point wise

1.worth LCA has for India

a)LCA is priceless for Indian aerospace Industry cause it helped us setup enitre ecosystem from jet propulssion lab to other allied labs to do R&D and manufacture cockpit instrumentation to mission compouters to its FBW/avionics and LRUs entire body & baody panelles to wirring harnesses to landing gears and hydrolicks and acuaters

b) LCA also tught us many diffrent lessons in how to mange & execute big ticket projects which no western or russia would ever teach us

c) LCA project tought us the value of internal R&D and how to keep or make or concieve big or for that matter achievable goals and get them and cooprate with other international players and how they sabotage your efforts in the name of so called coopration

d) last but not the least what started as a light fighter for limited strike and light combat or air interception come escort roles deu to IAFs constant goal posts changing and upgrading requirment everythine last requirements were intigrated in LCA prototype ... the humble LCA morphed into Worlds lightest Multi Role Fighter

which on interan fuel only has a respectable ferry range 1350Km
with 5200Kg weapons load carrying capacity
and is caable to make takeoff and landing on very short runways
in any weather day or night
and has a capability to be supersonick in all altitudes
and has 40% of its body wieth made of carbon composites
90% of skin area made of carbon composites making it lighter and easy to mantain
while still having a very potent onboard self protection & EW suit& AESA radar


2. Now sure LCA dose not has Mirage DNA as its a Crancked compounded tailless DELTA with high mounted wing design while Mirage 2000 is a classicall Delta with a low mounted Delta wing design and it is now where near F16 in design terms

besides LCA was made into its current design so it has a very low wing loading but still can change alititued very fast and with high speed and has a very high digree of +/- G limits tollaration and still very agile as it is aerodynamicklly unstable yet has Relaxed Static cabality deu to a very good qudrapell FBW based on a great Mission compouters and DATABUS

3. lastly just cause indian corporates like TATA which have more worth than entire pakistani GDP dose not mean they are the only ones in india we still have Relaince, Birla's , Singhanias , BAJAJ , TVS ,Wipro , L&T or Infosis , Adani just to name a few which all have almost the same wealth or maybe more


but But But indian Foriegn or defnce policy is not based on what these corportates think or want to do buissness with a perticular fav nation otherwise today latin america and africa or south east asia would have been indians most trusted allies not Russia, France , Israel , Japan or USA-UK or European nations for that matter

now the point is most of the fashion brands , Hotel chains and even auto manufacturers of USA , UK , France and Italy are owned by Indian firms like Bajaj owns KTM or TATA ownd DAEWOO TRUCKs or reliance owns M&S & HM or ZARA to name a few

we indians are not stupid like you guys we know the value of marketting and brand value thats the main reason even pakistanies in UAE < Turkiye , Greece , Europe , Russia , UK or USA call themselfs as Indian when they go to a posh Night club or a decent resturant or want a good job

Can I post a list of how many components and parts of your out of this universe Tejas are foreign based?

You're just spewing gibberish/nonsense, it's not true delta but compound delta has less agile than tail cropped delta wings platform like JF-17/F16s

And tell me how many compound delta wing jets are operational in the world other than your out of this universe Tejas

Every design has its limitations, Tejas is good on intetanious turns rate but JF-17 has good on sustain turn rate

So pure delta wings design is only built for speed rather than maneuverability/agility, prime example of delta wings designs are SR-71/F-106 delta dart/mirage2000/Mirage etc etc

And do research on the subject before you post here Gru Ji