PTI freedom movement against Judiciary and Establishment: News, Discussion & Updates

[alphapak]

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Cult is a cult and therefore dangerous in everyway.

Is every political party on this planet a cult according to you or only those
political parties in Pakistan?

Did you know that “decision” to separate BD was NOT the fauj alone

They were not alone but they were the root cause.

 

[pashtunkoum]

No - it isn’t and while you can conveniently shift goalposts because you don’t have an answer the objective reality is that pragmatic decisions made (whether historically right or wrong can be seen 25 years from now) are better than decisions made on bravado.

IKs self aggrandizement and stubbornness rubbed off very badly with some key allies while the so called “ass kissery” which is a term YOU introduced while claiming objectivity (hence my 5 points on cultism) is simply the fait accompli Pakistan has handed to it and must play with due to mistakes well before IK with establishment input and also from politicians etc etc.

That doesn’t mean what IK did or did not do is forgiven because he made miraculous promises(typical of politicians) on what was a bad situation anyway and then made it worse in many aspects (at times due to shitty advice by his own favorite supporters within the military) and the result is a net negative when he left, compounded by even more initial screwups by the PDM until the military shoved more technocrats in to do some course correction (which have their own screw ups).

So if you want my objective conclusion here then where you are is that Pakistanis in general are screwups or are ok with having screwups in charge of which IK was another screwup and therefore not a solution to the overall national screwuppery.

1) Where and which goal posts have I shifted specifically? Sorry but this just sounds like more buzzwords like “cult” without any backing. So please show me an example

2) Yes. History proves. 25 years on if anyone thinks our respond to WoT in 2001 was great then there is nothing else to discuss.

3) Saudi has the world’s most important asset and they’ve been reduced to nothing but a vassal state with no agency no authority. Nothing. Many other nations would have been a force to be reckoned with. I pointed this out earlier — the hypocrisy of some complaining about her Arab states in other threads but here that’s what they aspire to be. The ass kissing comment by Trump further proves my point

But the sense I get is even in Pakistans absolute best case scenario of stumbling into a crap ton of oil, your aspiration is to be a Saudi like state? Vassal to Americans? Then clearly IK supporters and others have a different vision for Pakistan.

 

[Oscar]

Is every political party on this planet a cult according to you or only those
political parties in Pakistan?


They were not alone but they were the root cause.

Many political parties where education is lacking but even where it is not end up in cultist ideals especially if they end up with a key center figure.

Exceptions can be seen on and off in scandinavia and so on but then its not all about politics - Elon Musk has a cult - even though some of his ideas are totally idiotic.

As far as Fauj being root cause you could cite Ayub Khan’s ideals being a driving factor but the isolation of Bengalis started with the unionist Punjabi in some collusion with the Urdu speaking migrant elites and the Fauj was nowhere at that time fully involved in those processes pre 58.

 

[hasssanali8998]

This is what the Fauji cult done in 1971.

no not really

 

[Distant_Observer]

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[Cipher212]

But if you actually read my posts completely THIS is EXACTLY what I am saying about there being multiple cults and no reasonable middle ground. And the post above you highlights why these exist.

The rest of what you talk about the 180 seats and 4 years of IK leaving have little to do with some miracle expected post IK and more to do with structural failures of the economy from decades that neither could PTI or IK solve in 4 years nor will the PDM.

The PTI government did not expect to be slapped by COVID and were bumbling through it sans some actual qualified individuals among them making good decisions. On the flipside post the PTI government got moved to the post Ukraine world and the Trump dismantling of existing norms and trade practices.

Nothing in this world has been normal since COVID and neither would PTI have the answers nor pointing to PDM failures justifies that PTI would have achieved anything(although until IKs own interference there were many good initiatives by former PTI folks that could have left longer lasting structural impact)

So no - the cult insult stands because the whole “with us or we’ll burn Pakistan down” ideas still stand by many PTI supporters

It doesn't matter if those 180+ seats came by miracle or whatever. They were there and they were denied. That's it.

And no, PTI is not burning the country in any way. Rather it is the Khaki Cult that has repeatedly destroyed Pakistan in order to hold on to power but you fail to point that out.

First they poisoned Fatima Jinnah, then they shot Liaqat Ali, then they started a chain of martial laws. Then this mad cult started killings and rapes in Bangladesh. Then they dragged us into a war with Soviet Union training what is now the Taliban. Then they went into Kargil without asking us bloody civilians. I could go on and on but nahi, PTI cult hay ennu pharr

Time and time again this mad institution has brought this country to the brink just because of their bull headedness, ego and unwillingness to listen to anyone or compromise. All the things that one cricketer is criticised for on this forum.

And look, I get it. It's defence pk, not cricket pk. People are going to be biased here in favour of the Army but for gods sake it's 2026. Can we stop covering for them like this? If PTI is a cult then what of the army that brought PTI to power post 2011? Will they pay?

 

[Oscar]

1) Where and which goal posts have I shifted specifically? Sorry but this just sounds like more buzzwords like “cult” without any backing. So please show me an example

2) Yes. History proves. 25 years on if anyone thinks our respond to WoT in 2001 was great then there is nothing else to discuss.

3) Saudi has the world’s most important asset and they’ve been reduced to nothing but a vassal state with no agency no authority. Nothing. Many other nations would have been a force to be reckoned with. I pointed this out earlier — the hypocrisy of some complaining about her Arab states in other threads but here that’s what they aspire to be. The ass kissing comment by Trump further proves my point

But the sense I get is even in Pakistans absolute best case scenario of stumbling into a crap ton of oil, your aspiration is to be a Saudi like state? Vassal to Americans? Then clearly IK supporters and others have a different vision for Pakistan.

1) You want me to paste your thread history then sanctimonious one? You claim that your argument is objective, but your entire response stream is a masterclass in shifting definitions to protect a hollow core. Instead of defending actual geopolitical strategy, you retreat to moral grandstanding and irrelevant tangents.

Going from "He never said Pakistan should stand up to America but there's a balance." for IK, but if someone suggests the same now its "Tumhara kutta kutta, mera kutta tommy" so it’s no longer "balance"; it’s being "ass kissers," "boot polishers," and "slaves" who want to "salute murderers."

This is called Hypocrisy btw but lets not use that to hurt your feelings and call it shifting goalposts
2)And on the 25 year point, you completely ducked the actual argument to try and make it about the dictator's decision instead of that governments make decisions they call pragmatic in the moment, and history can still prove those decisions were disastrous. That was the point. You did not answer it. You just replaced it with a fake version that was easier to attack and get cheerleader likes on. Convenient for the intellectually dishonest. You cannot solve a geopolitical crisis with a gun to your head by giving passionate speeches about true independence.

3) Using one off soundbites to make some point further shows your utter ignorance(willful for cult point scoring) instead of realizing that Saudi Arabia actively dictates global energy markets, recently joined BRICS, and frequently rejects United States demands on oil production but their balancing act(to protect their petrodollar advantage) is now some penultimate example for your "Great Khan Aleh salam" worldview... reminds me of the "Allah ke baad Imran Khan" comment by some drunk PTI bigwig on live television.

Let's apply your own logic. If MBS is an ass-kisser to America, what does that make Imran Khan? Who drove MBS around Islamabad like his personal chauffeur to beg for bailout money? Who went to the White House, smiled for the cameras, and bragged about his great relationship with Trump? Imran Khan.

This is exactly the goalpost shifting I am calling out. When IK bends over backwards for the US, the IMF, or the very Gulf states you are now trashing, your camp calls it "balance" and "diplomacy." But the minute anyone else suggests Pakistan needs a pragmatic, working relationship with the US or Gulf, you start screaming about slavery and boot polishing.


You are ignoring Pakistan's actual economic and geopolitical reality just so you can sound morally superior on the internet. You claim you want to stick to the facts, but your entire defense mechanism is just pasting the word "slave" over any reality that contradicts your narrative.

 

[Oscar]

It doesn't matter if those 180+ seats came by miracle or whatever. They were there and they were denied. That's it.

And no, PTI is not burning the country in any way. Rather it is the Khaki Cult that has repeatedly destroyed Pakistan in order to hold on to power but you fail to point that out.

First they poisoned Fatima Jinnah, then they shot Liaqat Ali, then they started a chain of martial laws. Then this mad cult started killings and rapes in Bangladesh. Then they dragged us into a war with Soviet Union training what is now the Taliban. Then they went into Kargil without asking us bloody civilians. I could go on and on but nahi, PTI cult hay ennu pharr

Time and time again this mad institution has brought this country to the brink just because of their bull headedness, ego and unwillingness to listen to anyone or compromise. All the things that one cricketer is criticised for on this forum.

And look, I get it. It's defence pk, not cricket pk. People are going to be biased here in favour of the Army but for gods sake it's 2026. Can we stop covering for them like this? If PTI is a cult then what of the army that brought PTI to power post 2011? Will they pay?

You literally dismantled your own argument in your last paragraph. You spent all that time listing 70 years of military history, calling them a mad cult that destroys Pakistan, and then casually admitted they brought PTI to power.

Read your own words. If the army is a murderous, country burning cult that poisoned founders and lost half the nation, why did Imran Khan spend a decade proudly acting as their political front man? What does that make him then? An opportunist who will ditch his so called principles for a murderous country burning cult? I wonder who is worse then?

You cannot list decades of martial laws and Kargil, and then pretend your leader is some pure democratic victim. He willingly allied with this exact same institution to crush his political rivals. He had zero problems with the khaki cult when they were managing his ballot boxes, throwing his opponents in jail, and silencing the media for him. He even happily gave their chief a three year extension.

Saying it does not matter how the seats came is peak hypocrisy. It absolutely matters when your entire moral high ground is built on being anti establishment. You are not fighting for civilian supremacy. You are just throwing a tantrum because the exact same establishment that manufactured your rise simply changed its mind and turned off the tap.

Trying to excuse PTI burning the country today by pointing to 1971 or the Soviet war is a pathetic deflection. The military having a dark history does not give your specific cult a free pass to torch the place just because you lost your favorite child status.

You ask if the army will pay for bringing PTI to power. They are paying for it right now by having to deal with the fallout of their own failed political project. You do not get to ride the tiger for years, feed your political opponents to it, and then cry about its teeth when it finally bites you.

 

[VCheng]

Read your own words. If the army is a murderous, country burning cult that poisoned founders and lost half the nation, why did Imran Khan spend a decade proudly acting as their political front man? What does that make him then? An opportunist who will ditch his so called principles for a murderous country burning cult? I wonder who is worse then?

You are making perfect sense, but those who are blinded by their leader's cult will refuse to see it, steadfastly, just like what a cult would expect its followers to do. 100%.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Let them be, I say, for reality wins over everything and everyone.

 

[Cipher212]

You literally dismantled your own argument in your last paragraph. You spent all that time listing 70 years of military history, calling them a mad cult that destroys Pakistan, and then casually admitted they brought PTI to power.

Read your own words. If the army is a murderous, country burning cult that poisoned founders and lost half the nation, why did Imran Khan spend a decade proudly acting as their political front man? What does that make him then? An opportunist who will ditch his so called principles for a murderous country burning cult? I wonder who is worse then?

You cannot list decades of martial laws and Kargil, and then pretend your leader is some pure democratic victim. He willingly allied with this exact same institution to crush his political rivals. He had zero problems with the khaki cult when they were managing his ballot boxes, throwing his opponents in jail, and silencing the media for him. He even happily gave their chief a three year extension.

Saying it does not matter how the seats came is peak hypocrisy. It absolutely matters when your entire moral high ground is built on being anti establishment. You are not fighting for civilian supremacy. You are just throwing a tantrum because the exact same establishment that manufactured your rise simply changed its mind and turned off the tap.

Trying to excuse PTI burning the country today by pointing to 1971 or the Soviet war is a pathetic deflection. The military having a dark history does not give your specific cult a free pass to torch the place just because you lost your favorite child status.

You ask if the army will pay for bringing PTI to power. They are paying for it right now by having to deal with the fallout of their own failed political project. You do not get to ride the tiger for years, feed your political opponents to it, and then cry about its teeth when it finally bites you.

Don't assume things about me first of all, thanks. I am far younger than you clearly and have only recently understood how things work. Before that yes, I supported PTI wholeheartedly and still do (as long as they remain pro civil-supremacy). If Imran ever cuts a deal I'm out.

So thanks for writing those long paragraphs criticising PTI but I don't really care. Thank you however for admitting that this army sucks.

Also, once again it really does not matter how those 180 seats came, because they came with OUR votes. I saw so many people vote for PTI not because they gave a shit about Imran Khan but out of pure spite for how 'in-your-face' the army was about rigging the election. Have you forgotten the election symbol nonsense?

What pettiness. I can only expect it from small hearted people who graduate from that bloody colonial remnant college in Kakul.

 

[Oscar]

Don't assume things about me first of all, thanks. I am far younger than you clearly and have only recently understood how things work. Before that yes, I supported PTI wholeheartedly and still do (as long as they remain pro civil-supremacy). If Imran ever cuts a deal I'm out.

So thanks for writing those long paragraphs criticising PTI but I don't really care. Thank you however for admitting that this army sucks.

Also, once again it really does not matter how those 180 seats came, because they came with OUR votes. I saw so many people vote for PTI not because they gave a shit about Imran Khan but out of pure spite for how 'in-your-face' the army was about rigging the election. Have you forgotten the election symbol nonsense?

What pettiness. I can only expect it from small hearted people who graduate from that bloody colonial remnant college in Kakul.

Yes, PTI got votes.

Nobody is denying that.

People were angry about the bat symbol mess and angry at how openly the system was trying to screw PTI. That clearly pushed more people toward them.

But that still does not prove what you think it proves!

A lot of people voting for PTI does not magically erase PTI’s own history with the same establishment. It just proves PTI became the main outlet for anti-establishment anger.

That is the part you keep skipping.

You are treating public support as if it wipes the slate clean. It does not. A party can get real votes and still be fairly criticized for how it behaved when the same power structure was helping it.

So yes, people voted for PTI.

Yes, many did it out of spite.

Yes, the symbol issue mattered.

But none of that means PTI is automatically consistent, principled, or above criticism.
That is why “180 seats came with our votes” is not some final answer. It answers whether PTI had support. It does not answer the hypocrisy point.

The hypocrisy aspect is when the establishment hurts PTI, suddenly it is all about civilian supremacy, democracy, and stolen rights.

When the establishment was helping PTI, that moral language was a lot quieter.

That is the issue. Not whether PTI had voters. They obviously did.

The military does not rule in a vacuum just because of some leftover colonial arrogance. They hold power because civilian politicians constantly invite them into the political space to crush their rivals. Every single time a politician runs to Rawalpindi to get an advantage, or acts as a political front for the establishment, they are the ones enabling the system. Calling the army a “colonial cult” is just a convenient trick to let civilian politicians off the hook. It allows leaders to play the innocent victim when the tiger they spent years feeding finally turns around and bites them.

You said you are younger, you recently figured out how things work, and you will drop PTI if Imran Khan ever cuts a deal.
Fair enough. I respect that. That is a principled stance.

But if you genuinely care about civil supremacy more than a personality, you have to drop the “colonial” excuse. It is a crutch. You can keep blaming the ghosts of 1971 or the British Raj if it makes you feel better, but doing so just gives a free pass to the politicians who actively enable the military today.

If you want to prove your generation is actually going to fix this, then you have to accept that the military’s power comes from civilian complicity. You have to demand that your own side takes responsibility for empowering them in the first place. You can either hold onto the comforting anti-colonial slogans, or you can face the ugly reality of how power is actually traded in Pakistan. Your call.

 

[Oscar]

You are making perfect sense, but those who are blinded by their leader's cult will refuse to see it, steadfastly, just like what a cult would expect its followers to do. 100%.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Let them be, I say, for reality wins over everything and everyone.

That is exactly why I use harsh words like “cult” directly to their faces. It is a deliberate shock tactic. For decades, the establishment brainwashed the public with absolute nonsense like “1 Pakistani equals 10 Indians.” You do not break that kind of deeply ingrained programming by being polite or talking in circles. You have to use acerbic language to hold a mirror up to the absurdity and force them to look at it.

But I have to disagree with you on one crucial point. We cannot just “let them be.”
If we completely write them off and abandon them to their echo chamber, we create a societal chasm that can never be closed.

Leaving a massive chunk of the population with a “no way back” stance only leads to one ultimate outcome, and it is a terrifying one.
When a society entirely fractures and both sides refuse to engage, you get civil conflict. In 1971, the split with Bangladesh was a massive tragedy, but it at least made geographical and logistical sense due to distance and demographics. Today’s Pakistan is completely different.

Pakistanis are a densely packed, deeply intertwined society. If we stop talking to each other and all these polarized negatives collide, a civil war here would not be a clean break. It could easily equal or exceed the horrific, street by street suffering we saw in Syria.

So yes, it is exhausting to argue with a wall. But we have to keep hammering the truth.
We cannot abandon people to the brainwashing, because giving up on them means giving up on the country’s cohesion.

Reality does win eventually, but the cost of that victory depends entirely on how many people we can drag back to sanity before things snap. We have to keep fighting the narrative right now so the country does not literally have to fight itself later.

 

[flyingorca]

Yes, PTI got votes.

Nobody is denying that.

People were angry about the bat symbol mess and angry at how openly the system was trying to screw PTI. That clearly pushed more people toward them.

But that still does not prove what you think it proves!

A lot of people voting for PTI does not magically erase PTI’s own history with the same establishment. It just proves PTI became the main outlet for anti-establishment anger.

That is the part you keep skipping.

You are treating public support as if it wipes the slate clean. It does not. A party can get real votes and still be fairly criticized for how it behaved when the same power structure was helping it.

So yes, people voted for PTI.

Yes, many did it out of spite.

Yes, the symbol issue mattered.

But none of that means PTI is automatically consistent, principled, or above criticism.
That is why “180 seats came with our votes” is not some final answer. It answers whether PTI had support. It does not answer the hypocrisy point.

The hypocrisy aspect is when the establishment hurts PTI, suddenly it is all about civilian supremacy, democracy, and stolen rights.

When the establishment was helping PTI, that moral language was a lot quieter.

That is the issue. Not whether PTI had voters. They obviously did.

The military does not rule in a vacuum just because of some leftover colonial arrogance. They hold power because civilian politicians constantly invite them into the political space to crush their rivals. Every single time a politician runs to Rawalpindi to get an advantage, or acts as a political front for the establishment, they are the ones enabling the system. Calling the army a “colonial cult” is just a convenient trick to let civilian politicians off the hook. It allows leaders to play the innocent victim when the tiger they spent years feeding finally turns around and bites them.

You said you are younger, you recently figured out how things work, and you will drop PTI if Imran Khan ever cuts a deal.
Fair enough. I respect that. That is a principled stance.

But if you genuinely care about civil supremacy more than a personality, you have to drop the “colonial” excuse. It is a crutch. You can keep blaming the ghosts of 1971 or the British Raj if it makes you feel better, but doing so just gives a free pass to the politicians who actively enable the military today.

If you want to prove your generation is actually going to fix this, then you have to accept that the military’s power comes from civilian complicity. You have to demand that your own side takes responsibility for empowering them in the first place. You can either hold onto the comforting anti-colonial slogans, or you can face the ugly reality of how power is actually traded in Pakistan. Your call.

Just mere votes should not decide feat of a nation.
If we look at example of Russia, almost every single Putin's political opponent gets pushed off balcony. He is guaranteed to win elections every single time. But that does not mean he is against Russia just because he does not believe in free and fair elections. And we all know without Putin Russia will get disintegrated like what happened to USSR.
Pakistan will never have a civil leader who will put his military first because their political interest comes first.

 

[Oscar]

Just mere votes should not decide feat of a nation.
If we look at example of Russia, almost every single Putin's political opponent gets pushed off balcony. He is guaranteed to win elections every single time. But that does not mean he is against Russia just because he does not believe in free and fair elections. And we all know without Putin Russia will get disintegrated like what happened to USSR.
Pakistan will never have a civil leader who will put his military first because their political interest comes first.

People often assume I just blindly hate PTI, but that is not true at all.

In principle, I supported them as much as I could. I actually sat with Dr. Alvi back in 2013 to help brainstorm their election planning and monitoring system. I know some highly qualified, well meaning people who were part of that movement.

I supported them precisely because I do not want the military running the show and getting away with everything. I wanted a real alternative. I saw exactly what Imran Khan was. I saw the disaster he was creating with his massive ego. Later we all saw how he was being manipulated by his wife, who operated exactly like Melisandre leading Stannis Baratheon straight to his grave. And even seeing all of that, I was initially willing to overlook his flaws because of the bigger picture.

But there is a hard limit.

Unlike the people who formed this cult, I was not going to burn the entire forest down just because my sapling turned out to be a weed.

The reality of Pakistan is complicated, and the cult refuses to accept it. The establishment absolutely behaves like termites. They eat away at the foundation of the country. But at the same time, they are a central part of the load bearing structure that they, along with the other elites and players in society, designed. For better or worse, that structure is what is currently keeping the forest intact.

If you try to rip them out overnight by setting the whole ecosystem on fire just because your leader got ousted, the roof collapses on everyone. I wanted civilian supremacy, but I am not going to destroy the country just because my chosen vehicle turned out to be defective.

 

[Cipher212]

Yes, PTI got votes.

Nobody is denying that.

People were angry about the bat symbol mess and angry at how openly the system was trying to screw PTI. That clearly pushed more people toward them.

But that still does not prove what you think it proves!

A lot of people voting for PTI does not magically erase PTI’s own history with the same establishment. It just proves PTI became the main outlet for anti-establishment anger.

That is the part you keep skipping.

You are treating public support as if it wipes the slate clean. It does not. A party can get real votes and still be fairly criticized for how it behaved when the same power structure was helping it.

So yes, people voted for PTI.

Yes, many did it out of spite.

Yes, the symbol issue mattered.

But none of that means PTI is automatically consistent, principled, or above criticism.
That is why “180 seats came with our votes” is not some final answer. It answers whether PTI had support. It does not answer the hypocrisy point.

The hypocrisy aspect is when the establishment hurts PTI, suddenly it is all about civilian supremacy, democracy, and stolen rights.

When the establishment was helping PTI, that moral language was a lot quieter.

That is the issue. Not whether PTI had voters. They obviously did.

The military does not rule in a vacuum just because of some leftover colonial arrogance. They hold power because civilian politicians constantly invite them into the political space to crush their rivals. Every single time a politician runs to Rawalpindi to get an advantage, or acts as a political front for the establishment, they are the ones enabling the system. Calling the army a “colonial cult” is just a convenient trick to let civilian politicians off the hook. It allows leaders to play the innocent victim when the tiger they spent years feeding finally turns around and bites them.

You said you are younger, you recently figured out how things work, and you will drop PTI if Imran Khan ever cuts a deal.
Fair enough. I respect that. That is a principled stance.

But if you genuinely care about civil supremacy more than a personality, you have to drop the “colonial” excuse. It is a crutch. You can keep blaming the ghosts of 1971 or the British Raj if it makes you feel better, but doing so just gives a free pass to the politicians who actively enable the military today.

If you want to prove your generation is actually going to fix this, then you have to accept that the military’s power comes from civilian complicity. You have to demand that your own side takes responsibility for empowering them in the first place. You can either hold onto the comforting anti-colonial slogans, or you can face the ugly reality of how power is actually traded in Pakistan. Your call.

I disagree with notion of civil complicity. It's a forced shadow rule. You forget the military has guns, unmarked vehicles and masked men to enforce their desires. They can geofence you. They can cancel your character certificate. They can label you anti-national, Yahudi Agent, RAW Agent or worse, a communist.

Politicians are not necessarily warriors and are easy to coerce. Grassroot level student politics has long been obliterated. Us ki jagah ham Model United Nations kartay hay which is Mashallah, just as useless as the real thing.

I do have one very good example of PTI empowering civilian supremacy. That is Sohail Afridi. As far as I've researched, he is no big man's son. He's common cattle and yet he's CM. Just him being made CM is a huge step in the direction that can make this country great.