PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Meengla]

Your hate is endless. So sad for a intelligent person like you.

Anyone who undermines the state of Pakistan is my target. In past, other politicians were. I was expecting much better from Imran but he turned out to be even worse. So my 'hate' is justified however I don't understand the continuing love for Imran by many here. What kind of 'evidence' is needed to convince them that Imran is unfit to rule Pakistan??

 

[meh_analysis]

Anyone who undermines the state of Pakistan is my target. In past, other politicians were. I was expecting much better from Imran but he turned out to be even worse. So my 'hate' is justified however I don't understand the continuing love for Imran by many here. What kind of 'evidence' is needed to convince them that Imran is unfit to rule Pakistan??

I'll stop you right here. I understand that IK was not the perfect leader but the same applies to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Tbh both are the branches from the same tree. IK however was far more open to strategic ambiguity. He took chances like any sane person would, he was elevated by Zia after all in his cricket days. He knows how Pakistan works so he kept a fail safe like any normal person, for example Mia Nawaz Sharif. However the way he was ousted was the problem, he clearly had problems and was not popular. But when people have seen their leader get hanged for being independent before, it got them riled up. Coupled with the fact that during that time West essentially lost Afghanistan and Pakistan tried to move towards a more Eastern block with China/Russia, it caused problems. Our politicians and y'know have a lot of assets in West hence can not be alienated by them. Hence why they took their chance to throw away frankly a person who was getting more and more powerful, people tend to forget that IK only won the election with a inch of his hair and with multiple support. He at be 35-40%. Which isn't a lot but the other parties would also decrease, allowing IK to slowly get seat majority in the cabinet with minimal efforts. Not to mention his roadmap, which if he was allowed, imo would've raised his popularity to atleast 45%. He was also anti-corrupt in many aspects even it's a hard pill to swallow. Now onto the reason why you should support him, democracy. Yeah he was bad and did shitty stuff but right now he's working towards a more democratic Pakistan with less establishment meddling. One should judge other's opinion by his past but not his actions. His actions are a direct result of political meddling by establishment, the people are not mindless sheeps. They have seen this trend for decades now, we didn't know why it happened. But now we do, also it was not IK who exposed the military but the workers and essentially how the military acted against the mob/IK. Social media helped show factual video unfiltered by propaganda and the people realized that they were being fooled by our saviours. Yes the people never knew what the establishment did so it came at a shock. However trust has been lowered and seeing what they're doing. I don't think I could possibly make any excuses for them, the 27th Amendment was the nail to the coffin and the burial of democracy.

 

[VCheng]

What kind of 'evidence' is needed to convince them that Imran is unfit to rule Pakistan??

Sometimes, the better approach is to let reality teach them the degree of their delusion, as it shall inevitably.

IK's time came and went. The chances of him getting back into power are slim to none. Whether they recognize it or not simply does not matter.

Chill out!

 

[hnn]

Sometimes, the better approach is to let reality teach them the degree of their delusion, as it shall inevitably.

Chill out!

But will it (reality) though? 40 years later PMLN and PPP loyalists still consider their leaders innocent PTI loyalty is yet in its infancy @Meengla I don't think any amount of "evidence" can ever convince a person who has already established truth in their minds.

Your favorite philosopher (I'm assuming here), Nietzsche, described it as the "fallacy of the philosophers" i.e. all philosophers fall into the pit of establishing truth a priori and then begin the rational inquiry. So if the great minds can't manage the bias, how can us, ordinary minds be expected to do so?

 

[VCheng]

But will it (reality) though? 40 years later PMLN and PPP loyalists still consider their leaders innocent PTI loyalty is yet in its infancy @Meengla

They can believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, as long as they remain out of power, being above or below the ground does not matter.

 

[Meengla]

'll stop you right here. I understand that IK was not the perfect leader but the same applies to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Tbh both are the branches from the same tree. IK however was far more open to strategic ambiguity. He took chances like any sane person would, he was elevated by Zia after all in his cricket days. He knows how Pakistan works so he kept a fail safe like any normal person, for example Mia Nawaz Sharif.

Firstly, I despise both Imran and Nawaz equally! And that's because of the severe 'personality flaws' I have been harping about for a long time.
And secondly, your 'whatabouttism' won't help: Because ZAB was a product of the military, because Nawaz was, doesn't make Imran a better product of the military. Enough of the whataboutism.
What Pakistan needs is a prolonged period of focus, continuity of policies, deterrence against India and of 'governance' and as far as I can see, the current arrangement is the best Pakistan has since Zia's death in 1988. BTW, I hate Zia more than any single leader of Pakistan. I had lived through his damn rule in the 80s. Me and @VCheng : We know about him and we know about the Pakistan Establishment except my views have diverged from VCheng on the path forward.

 

[VCheng]

So if the great minds can't manage the bias, how can us, ordinary minds be expected to do so?

Having biases is fairly normal human behavior. The key lies in managing the effects of any bias that might exist. Not many are able to do that, but it is a problem only for those can not, or do not, learn to do so.

A philosopher can understand their own biases without eliminating them, and thus can rise above them to see any issue from a properly wider perspective. Most who do not even see their biases, let alone understand them, will only see the proverbial elephant only in the form of the body part they are aware of while blindfolded.

The elephant still remains an elephant, and therefore it does not matter at all to those who know.

 

[Oscar]

Overall good post except the bolded part: Imran and Faiz and possibly some other Generals were in collaboration to help each others' careers by doing behind the scene machinations to retain and prolong their respective tenures. General Faiz was the ISI Chief--perhaps the second most powerful position in Pakistan after the Army Chief--and yet Faiz is in the docks.
Imran's ouster didn't have much to do with foreign govts except, I think, USA, China and Saudi Arabia didn't care for Imran as the PM. But the wonderful 'Imported Government' or the BS 'Absolutely Not' slogans were enough to tap into Pakistanis' rampant anti-Americanism for which Imran got a year of the megaphone and thus became popular. He was NOT popular by the time the NCM was tabled in April 2022 and that's why he preferred to work behind the scene with the Generals instead of calling early elections.

Sensationalism and politics go hand in hand. IK campaigned to the masses on “bringing money back” and so on.
At the end it is the fallacy of his sponsors to realize who he actually was - and the eternal hope lost for the educated middle class who saw one last hope for representation and say.

 

[hnn]

Having biases is fairly normal human behavior. The key lies in managing the effects of any bias that might exist. Not many are able to do that, but it is a problem only for those can not, or do not, learn to do so.

A philosopher can understand their own biases without eliminating them, and thus can rise above them to see any issue from a properly wider perspective. Most who do not even see their biases, let alone understand them, will only see the proverbial elephant only in the form of the body part they are aware of while blindfolded.

The elephant still remains an elephant, and therefore it does not matter at all to those who know.

Probably true but again, can ordinary mind do so? At least it's extremely difficult for them if not impossible to be aware of where they don't want to see an elephant as mere elephant and not something less or more.

Anyhow, I think we'll get too philosophical here and then get labeled as "trolls" lol - my point was it is very difficult for any loyalist, who is emotionally invested with the politics of their preferred party, to call spade a spade. They'll always see their leaders with halos above their heads.

 

[Meengla]

But will it (reality) though? 40 years later PMLN and PPP loyalists still consider their leaders innocent PTI loyalty is yet in its infancy @Meengla I don't think any amount of "evidence" can ever convince a person who has already established truth in their minds.

Your favorite philosopher (I'm assuming here), Nietzsche, described it as the "fallacy of the philosophers" i.e. all philosophers fall into the pit of establishing truth a priori and then begin the rational inquiry. So if the great minds can't manage the bias, how can us, ordinary minds be expected to do so?

Yes, Nietzsche is my favorite philosopher and more than that. And I also know his 'a priory'. On my bedside, is his 'Beyond Good and Evil' and that, along with just one more book, like some book of fiction (currently, it is 'Blackrobe) is the only book at my bedside.
But as far as things not changing, they DO change. Look at the political figures in Pakistan from the 50s to now. Mighty 'houses' have fallen. There is always a 'Twilight of the Idols', to mention Nietzsche again.

 

[Meengla]

Sensationalism and politics go hand in hand. IK campaigned to the masses on “bringing money back” and so on.
At the end it is the fallacy of his sponsors to realize who he actually was - and the eternal hope lost for the educated middle class who saw one last hope for representation and say.

I think you could say I am one of those 'educated middle class'. The Twilight of my own Idol happened and I couldn't be sadder for that.

 

[VCheng]

- my point was it is very difficult for any loyalist, who is emotionally invested with the politics of their preferred party, to call spade a spade. They'll always see their leaders with halos above their heads.

And my point is to let them see their chosen leaders and demagogues with any and all halos they wish to bestow upon them.

It simply does not matter.

For myself, I merely accept everyone's views without trying to correct them in any way, since reality remains exactly whatever it is, and that alone is enough for me.

Removing the ignorance of others is not my problem, because I can only concentrate on improving my own knowledge and the endless pursuit thereof.

 

[hnn]

'Twilight of the Idols', to mention Nietzsche again.

Then let them kill their god themselves. All we have to do is wait and watch patiently

 

[hnn]

And my point is to let them see their chosen leaders and demagogues with any and all halos they wish to bestow upon them.

It simply does not matter.

For myself, I merely accept everyone's views without trying to correct them in any way, since reality remains exactly whatever it is, and that alone is enough for me.

Removing the ignorance of others is not my problem, because I can only concentrate on improving my own knowledge and the endless pursuit thereof.

Yeah I understood that already. I was trying to communicate the same as above to @Meengla albeit more philosophically lol because he was asking about "what kind of evidence"

It doesn't matter because people will believe what they want to believe, we can't control that, especially when it comes to ideas where emotional investment is the initial cost.

 

[Oscar]

I think you could say I am one of those 'educated middle class'. The Twilight of my own Idol happened and I couldn't be sadder for that.

I was never one for idols or messiahs - Pakistan has not had an honest one since Jinnah.

However, a potential representation, agency in how the country is positioned and led - and more importantly truly qualified people leading important institutions and departments was a hope I saw through PTI and despite fumbles there were situations where you actually had those individuals.

Unfortunately, for political points and then also the typical sycophants guiding egos along with the typical mediocre military men (the best of Pakistan military more often than not keeps to their job and focuses on making impact in what they know best) showed by 2021 that things wont work out well.

The entire PDM saga and cipher and so on was utterly unnecessary because the reading by late 21 and early 22 was already that PTI government has flopped and they were trying out the usual suspects for stability and so on.

We all knew it but just to NOT GET THE SCUM in PML or PPP were doing the best to present some positive spin not because of IK but because PTI meant something to the educated middle class.

That really is the reason for lamenting its demise.