Rafale Fighter Jets To Roll Out From Mihan-SEZ In Nagpur 🇮🇳, says Gadkari

[Oscar]

Dassault doesn’t want local Indian companies sinking their most prized defense product and the basis for future sales of the Rafale and eventually the FCAS.

They may actually help the Indian industry and invest enough perhaps due to more anticipated sales and a production line that isn’t keeping up.

Im surprised though that the Egyptians did not insist on being the local MRO for the Rafale.
India’s quality will be fine so long as the right private sector players are involved. With the Tejas they actually had the wrong ones involved early on and people looking to make quick bucks off the program.

 

[FuturePAF]

They may actually help the Indian industry and invest enough perhaps due to more anticipated sales and a production line that isn’t keeping up.

Im surprised though that the Egyptians did not insist on being the local MRO for the Rafale.
India’s quality will be fine so long as the right private sector players are involved. With the Tejas they actually had the wrong ones involved early on and people looking to make quick bucks off the program.

Under direct Dassault supervision, they will ensure quality is maintained. They know their reputation is on the line. With JVs, the wheat will be sifted from the chaff and the reliable partners will emerge.

I didn’t mean Indian industry would always be Uncompetitive, but that that it’s only a matter of time.

The Egyptians probably didn’t think big enough. India had a large fleet it could independently afford to replace, while Egypt’s fleet size was dependent more on political winds.

 

[kambhakt]

T

They hope india has, but only time will tell.

Such decisions are not based on hope.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

So what about TEDBF and other local projects - it seems that there are 2-3 camps constantly at oods with one another and possibly sabotaging each other too.
One wants to build and make everything in India
One wants to do JVs and build existing products in India
One just wants to buy everything off the shelf

Problem is that Navy faces an immediate shortage of aircrafts after the induction of INS Vikrant. And Indian Navy is now working on its 3rd Aircraft Carrier. So it means that all 3 aircraft carriers in total would require 140-150 aircraft. Even if Rafale is inducted, there's still plenty of room for TEDBF, after which when INS Vikramaditya retires and a bigger aircraft carrier joins in future (INS Vishal) the requirement would be even more.

 

[Archie]

So what about TEDBF and other local projects - it seems that there are 2-3 camps constantly at oods with one another and possibly sabotaging each other too.
One wants to build and make everything in India
One wants to do JVs and build existing products in India
One just wants to buy everything off the shelf

TEDBF will take 10yrs if not more to enter service
In the mean time, we can't have our 2 carriers flying 15 mig29k each Considering the fact that navy only has like 40-42 Mig29 in stock and we have to take into account fighter availability rate might not be greater than 70%
Hence 26 Rafales are being purchased to plug the gap, though I still believe that 36 Rafale should have been bought taking into account a 40 year lifespan of Rafale and Vikrant and likely hood of Attrition during this time
Not to mention, the fact that Navy only bought 22 Rafale M which are carrier capable , other 4 being Rafale B twin seaters which would be shore based

That means that Vikrant will deploy with at max 18 Rafale Ms taking into account fighter availability.
while it was designed to carry 24 Fighters and 10 Helicopter
Unless Navy planners decide to add 6-8 Mig29k to the mix

 

[White Privilege]

France was long reluctant (during the original MRFA competition) to build in India, hence only 36 jets sold to India, because they feared the quality wouldn’t be as good as the made in France / OEM Rafales. They thought it will hurt their reputation should defects or poor build quality arise, and especially if there are excessive crashes. France is betting on India (to try to make a buck), let’s see if their bets pan out or they face palm.

If the news is true, Dassault is essentially 'selling off" its Rafale production line. It realizes, Indians are invested in the aircraft so this is going to be the single biggest order for Rafale, before European air forces starts to induct the F-35, so a smart business decision, and they of course would not be fully responsible for 'quality assurance' if the terms include TOT....

 

[Pingle]

Is there a timeline on this i.e. jets rolled out?
One thing about the French they do deliver to customers. They are the best bet when it comes to India's own engine project.

I think if the assembly line is being purchased then we can expect much faster deliveries.... if we had just ordered made in France then considering their orders from UAE, Indonesia and others it would have taken at least 5 to 7 years for deliveries to start but now we can expect much faster but after all everything depends on how fast Indian government completes the formalities......

 

[Pingle]

So what about TEDBF and other local projects - it seems that there are 2-3 camps constantly at oods with one another and possibly sabotaging each other too.
One wants to build and make everything in India
One wants to do JVs and build existing products in India
One just wants to buy everything off the shelf

TEDBF should not be disturbed with this as navy is only going for 26 and they had informed earlier that these 26 will be only as a stop gap.... after that local products only will be procured..... so I pray actually this doesn't harm local industry.....

 

[Pingle]

If the news is true, Dassault is essentially 'selling off" its Rafale production line. It realizes, Indians are invested in the aircraft so this is going to be the single biggest order for Rafale, before European air forces starts to induct the F-35, so a smart business decision, and they of course would not be fully responsible for 'quality assurance' if the terms include TOT....

News should be true otherwise someone like Nitin Gadkari wouldn't have commented.....

 

[Levina]

This is a misleading headline.
The minister's quote added to the confusion. Components of Rafale will be manufactured in Nagpur.

 

[Oscar]

TEDBF will take 10yrs if not more to enter service
In the mean time, we can't have our 2 carriers flying 15 mig29k each Considering the fact that navy only has like 40-42 Mig29 in stock and we have to take into account fighter availability rate might not be greater than 70%
Hence 26 Rafales are being purchased to plug the gap, though I still believe that 36 Rafale should have been bought taking into account a 40 year lifespan of Rafale and Vikrant and likely hood of Attrition during this time
Not to mention, the fact that Navy only bought 22 Rafale M which are carrier capable , other 4 being Rafale B twin seaters which would be shore based

That means that Vikrant will deploy with at max 18 Rafale Ms taking into account fighter availability.
while it was designed to carry 24 Fighters and 10 Helicopter
Unless Navy planners decide to add 6-8 Mig29k to the mix

That’s the whole point - isn’t that extremely wasteful and inefficient. I understand India is doing well but for all the economic smartness just spending token money here and there looks either really stupid or really corrupt(from a self interest perspective).

If there is a timeframe, and a capability is needed then get it through the most efficient route which is the Rafale and the heck with TEBDF.

If there is going to be TEBDF because xyz ancillary benefits then tell the Navy to hold on for a bit more and focus on doing this.

To use our common language proverbs - Na idhar ke udhar ke is the story of Indian procurement. I generally had a very high opinion of Indian capabilities with money matters but after so many years looking at your programs and so on it seems like you guys are smart until you’re suddenly successful.. excellent with individual finances but as a collective too many cooks eager to spoil the broth.

 

[Oscar]

TEDBF should not be disturbed with this as navy is only going for 26 and they had informed earlier that these 26 will be only as a stop gap.... after that local products only will be procured..... so I pray actually this doesn't harm local industry.....

Like why??
Doesn’t that seem extremely inefficient?

 

[Oscar]

Problem is that Navy faces an immediate shortage of aircrafts after the induction of INS Vikrant. And Indian Navy is now working on its 3rd Aircraft Carrier. So it means that all 3 aircraft carriers in total would require 140-150 aircraft. Even if Rafale is inducted, there's still plenty of room for TEDBF, after which when INS Vikramaditya retires and a bigger aircraft carrier joins in future (INS Vishal) the requirement would be even more.

Please see above - Im just plain speaking as someone with moderate professional experience in project/program management and portfolio management. This along with the entire pathway for local development looks like everyone singing their own raag instead of a cohesive chrous.

 

[Pingle]

Like why??
Doesn’t that seem extremely inefficient?

Yes it quite inefficient too.... though we must encourage local industry 26 is a very small number considering delays can happen I rolling out local product the testing etc... so I think navy too should have gone at least for 57 which was the original plan

 

[Migflug]

That’s the whole point - isn’t that extremely wasteful and inefficient. I understand India is doing well but for all the economic smartness just spending token money here and there looks either really stupid or really corrupt(from a self interest perspective).

If there is a timeframe, and a capability is needed then get it through the most efficient route which is the Rafale and the heck with TEBDF.

If there is going to be TEBDF because xyz ancillary benefits then tell the Navy to hold on for a bit more and focus on doing this.

To use our common language proverbs - Na idhar ke udhar ke is the story of Indian procurement. I generally had a very high opinion of Indian capabilities with money matters but after so many years looking at your programs and so on it seems like you guys are smart until you’re suddenly successful.. excellent with individual finances but as a collective too many cooks eager to spoil the broth.

The forces have habit of preferring foreign equipment's while the PSUs has the habit of delaying every development. Thus were are always stuck in this vicious cycle of off the self, very costly, world class foreign procurement vs indigenous products which are always delayed but good enough for the job while being relatively inexpensive!!