Rafale M Deal: India and France to Fast-Track Negotiations After Elections

BP2 said:
IAF with 126 Mirage 2000-5 now, even without Rafale, would have been far stronger. So I don't agree with you about a non strategic decision.
Add that with the full line in India it would have been possible to export some more units (with french agreement).
And with the M53 engine, a first gen of AMCA more easy to have.
So a good decision not taken.

Why do you always want Dassault to milk its customers? No one force Egypt, UAE, Greece, India etc... to purchase gen after gen french fighters. If you purchase Dassault fighters it is because they are potent and offer a good quality to cost ratio. If not go to russian (already tryed) or american solution (good but delivered with a dual key system !)
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I won't blame Dassault for doing what is best for them, good on them for trying and if they are not then its gross derelictions of their duties.

Now coming to milking its customers, don't think there is any other way to put across, when you are flogging a soon to be discontinued product to some poor country to make money using consulting fees, selling tools for production process and extra charges further integrations.

I’ll say it again, nothing wrong with it as they were looking after French jobs at DA, Snecma and Thales. Just to provide further context, production line transfer is as vague as it comes, engine, radar and other high-end items would have been still shipped from France. In other words, apart from local production of fuselage, everything else would have still came from France.

Also, I’ll never a use milking word for Rafale sales does not matter how expensive they are as it’s state of art product in French arsenal and actively making it better for foreseeable future and not discontinuing it short term, as was the case for M2000.

Don’t think France give a crap to India and vice versa, and everyone looks after their own self-interests. I’m glad someone in Indian government had the foresight to see what is coming.

Have a good one.
 
silicon0000 said:
Don't give small heart attacks to Indian Fan boys ;)
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He is confusing the initial versions of the UTTAM AESA radar, which were developed around 16 years ago, with the modern versions. The new UTTAM AESA radar is GaN-based, and the versions that will be integrated into the Tejas MK1A, MK2, AMCA, TEDBF, Su-30MKI, and MiG-29 are all GaN-based as well.
 
Guru Dutt said:
that GaA verssion came out in 2009 right now they are testing its GaN verssion called Virupaksha
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OK. But from a prototyp to a serially produce radar, long is the road !

You can 'hand made' produce a small lot of GaN T/R modules for a proto, but not for serial one (because of the cost).
The french decided on a financial basis (and not technical one) to use GaN in Spectra first, because it needs less modules.
But Radar antenna is onother beast and we decided to wait a price cut before to go (and the greater range GaN antenna needs also more processing power, needed another architecture. So a GaN antenna with the actual RBE2 processing power is not clever).
 
paindu said:
production line transfer is as vague as it comes, engine, radar and other high-end items would have been still shipped from France. In other words, apart from local production of fuselage, everything else would have still came from France.
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I'm not sure.
All can be discussed, specially with french.
The assembly line, but also the engine line, radar line, etc... have been scrapped.... So I'm sure that if India really wanted it all, it was in the interest of all.
But the Tejas was on the horizon, with Kaveri.... and India top brass, probably poorly advised by HAL, DRDO, etc... decided to put all the eggs in the Tejas basket.
 
Chandragupt Maurya said:
He is confusing the initial versions of the UTTAM AESA radar, which were developed around 16 years ago, with the modern versions. The new UTTAM AESA radar is GaN-based, and the versions that will be integrated into the Tejas MK1A, MK2, AMCA, TEDBF, Su-30MKI, and MiG-29 are all GaN-based as well.
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will be integrated.
With the indian time black hole, it is highly difficult to traduce this "will be" in a serious entry date.
So so far it is a prototyp.
 
BP2 said:
I'm not sure.
All can be discussed, specially with french.
The assembly line, but also the engine line, radar line, etc... have been scrapped.... So I'm sure that if India really wanted it all, it was in the interest of all.
But the Tejas was on the horizon, with Kaveri.... and India top brass, probably poorly advised by HAL, DRDO, etc... decided to put all the eggs in the Tejas basket.
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I was thinking logically and have no insider info.

Everyone is genius in hindsight, isnt it? India may have rejected this deal due to some other reason or may be it was a bad decision, who knows.

Have a good one.
 
onlinpunit said:
We should have bought the M2000 assembly line with all the rights in 1999.
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Would France ever allow manufacturing of components ? Did India even have the capacity to absorb the technology - engine, radar, avionics, airframes ? India is still figuring out how tom set up a semiconductor fab in 2024.
 
BP2 said:
Next RBE2 radar, for F5, will be fully GaN. GaN antenna not integrated on RBE2 because too costly as for now. Not a technical issue.
But a greater range means a far greater computing power (space to scan is % to range ^3), this is why we are waiting for another gen radar.
But it seems that Spectra is already GaN fitted.

UTAAM is GaN ?

Do you imagine it is free to integrate something new on Russian jets? Sure not.
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hi BP2, any source for the claim that there'll be a GaN RBE2 radar for Rafale F5?

Uttam AESA that is currently being test flown is GaAs but a new GaN variant is being developed. Apparently, the Virupaksha (a variant of the Uttam) AESA radar, for the Su-30MKI upgrade is going to use GaN T/R modules.
 
BP2 said:
In the 40 millions there are 50% offsets. Remove these offsets and the price fall to 25 millions.
The life span of these Mirage was increased. It is included in the price.
And are we aware of all that was improved? As it as a nuclear asset for India, maybe some more goodies were changed or added....
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Are you aware that the Mission Computer for the Mirage-2000I was of HAL origin? HAL actually worked a lot on getting the FOC for the Mirage-2000I upgrade as it's share of the work.

It wasn't like Dassault did all the development and flight testing and HAL simply replaced avionics and that was it. A LOT of design and development, flight testing and integration work was done by HAL itself. The details are given below:

Mirage-2000 FOC Upgrade MLU

Mirage 2000 aircraft MLU comprises of avionics upgradation and weapon integration. 94 New Configurations have been cleared by RCMA(A/C), CEMILAC.

Final Operational Capability (FOC) and series up-gradation of the fleet carried out by MCSRDC, HAL. The FOC activity includes:

Design & Development of HAL Mission Computer (MC2)

Integration of Buyer Furnished/Specified Equipment’s (BFE/BSEs) and stores viz

Laser Designator Pod (LDP)

Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI)

Helmet Mounted Display system (HMDS)

Crystal Maze (CM) Missile System

Next Generation Precision Guided Munition (NGPGM)

Laser Guided Bombs (LGBs), 450 Kg HSLD bombs, 250 Kg HSLD bombs

Counter Measure Dispensing System (CMDS), the integration of NGPGM integration will be taken up post FOC.

Status

Service Clearance issued for Mirage 2000 I/TI FOC upgrade vide No. RCMA(A/C)/HAL(BC)/2022 dated 29 May 2018.

Flight Trials for the Expansion of Operational C.G. range under progress

Production Ground and Flight Test Schedules, AMI and Modification Leaflet under scrutiny

Mission Computer (MC-2) type approval under progress

As on date flying efforts on Mirage aircraft KT 201 is 95 and KF 107 is 72. A total of 167 flights completed for various configurations.

Lightening LDP 4i integration on Mirage 2000 H/TH Aircraft. Flight evaluation is under progress for LDP OFP S/W Ver. 1.7
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In major news, France has submitted it's latest best and final offer for the 26 Rafale M/D fighters for the Indian Navy.

After hectic negotiations, price was reduced after the DCS clearance to remove the clauses to integrate Uttam AESA radar and integrate Astra BVRAAMs on the Indian Navy's Rafales.

They have agreed to use a yearly escalation methodology, using the 36 Rafale deal for the IAF as the baseline to calculate how much the Rafale M/Ds should cost.

Ahead of NSA visit, France submits final price offer for 26 Rafale Marine jet deal
 
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