Shimla mosque row: Protestors break barricades, clash with police

[lightoftruth]

Which party workers are doing all this burning and looting? That's important.
BJP needs these type of things and these are not gonna stop now but increase with time till next election.

All of them BJP, Congress etc , BJP was never weak in Himanchal ,they don't need any agitation to win their.

Common Hindus don't want muslims encroaching on their land through waqf, Its very simple to understand.

 

[Joe Shearer]

All of them BJP, Congress etc , BJP was never weak in Himanchal ,they don't need any agitation to win their.

Common Hindus don't want muslims encroaching on their land through waqf, Its very simple to understand.

This is difficult to understand. How does waqf become an instrument of dispossession of the land belonging to others?

Care to explain?

 

[lightoftruth]

Really a worthless analysis. Waqf relates to bequests and to trusts, and has nothing to do with common people's land, only with the property validated by documents of those making a bequest.

Most of the complaints pouring in are due to people who encroached on waqf property trying to defend their illegal encroachment using the religion card.

The BJP is trying to put in place an act that would subject the bequests to the judgement and jurisdiction of a board with non-Muslims on it; by itself, no difficult or dangerous proposition, but from the BJP, a blatant attempt to slip in a couple of foxes into a hen-house.

Joe expected better from you, Waqf has itself admitted they don't have documents to be presented in case of a judicial review of its all properties.

Waqf Tribunal who in itself a judge , jury and executioner in this act is non functional in many places thus complaints were never heard before, not everything is a communal agenda.

Waqf Tribunal not functioning for two years? Delhi High Court seeks State response

The Delhi High Court on Monday sought a response from the Delhi government on a plea seeking the constitution of tribunals to deal with disputes related to waqf

www.barandbench.com

Besides waqf is used by all elements to encroach on public/ private land as they know even courts are useless against it.

Delhi HC issues notice to Centre over unlawful claim of Waqf properties violating 1984 order - ET LegalWorld

The court had previously ruled in 1984 that these properties should remain under government ownership. However, in 2014, the Congress government during the announcement of Lok Sabha elections had transferred the properties to Waqf despite the court's stay on them. The Delhi High Court has issued...

legal.economictimes.indiatimes.com

BJP has a ton of flaws but its very mild on waqf , an amendment is useless, in a secular country their can't be any waqf act.

 

[lightoftruth]

This is difficult to understand. How does waqf become an instrument of dispossession of the land belonging to others?

Care to explain?

You don't know the mosque is allegedly donated to waqf so demolition orders can't be issued by courts ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

You don't know the mosque is allegedly donated to waqf ? so demolition orders can't be issued by courts ?

Waqf relates to land, and the buildings on that land are part of the bequest.

The question is very simple, and contrary to your statement, the matter was under litigation - the question is whether or not the person making the bequest had legitimate title to that land. If he, or she, did not, the bequest is invalid, and the waqf act does not apply. If the people stirring up trouble had not feared losing the case in court, they need not have whipped up religious emotions, and taken to the streets. Nor does the concept of waqf have anything to do with another demand of the protestors, that of checking the settling down of people belonging to targetted religions.

If you tried to understand what waqf is, directly, it would help you advance logical arguments. As it is, putting forward the rumours and totally misleading stuff swirling around social media is a shallow and mindless thing to do.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe expected better from you, Waqf has itself admitted they don't have documents to be presented in case of a judicial review of its all properties.

That was a generic statement applied to the huge mass of waqf property. The Waqf Boards in different states have limited funds and limited administration, and are working on the basis of outdated systems and processes. You can imagine the difficulty of obtaining legal documentation of land or property gifted several centuries ago.

That is what they are referring to.

Waqf Tribunal who in itself a judge , jury and executioner in this act is non functional in many places thus complaints were never heard before, not everything is a communal agenda.

This one is.

Try not to sweep everything under the carpet.

This is also perfectly in line with the current BJP tactics of inciting trouble against each and every I.N.D.I.A. state government. They have done it effectively in West Bengal, encouraged and aided by the sheer incompetence of the Mamata Bannerjee government; this is their effort in Himachal.

Try to figure out how a state that voted Congress now has agitated people shouting Jai Sri Ram.

As for Waqf Boards acting as judge, jury and executioner, that charge can be applied with equal justice to each and every person or body or institution responsible for guardianship of gifted property, whatever the religion of the bequeathor.

Again, I repeat, much controversy ON THIS FORUM can be avoided if people take the trouble of looking up the facts. We can do nothing about the situation in real life.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Unauthorised construction work at a mosque. Hinduwadis want illegal portion to be demolished

Why on earth are you misinterpreting the matter and putting things in such an inflammatory manner?

If you haven't done your homework, don't comment.

 

[lightoftruth]

Waqf relates to land, and the buildings on that land are part of the bequest.

The question is very simple, and contrary to your statement, the matter was under litigation - the question is whether or not the person making the bequest had legitimate title to that land. If he, or she, did not, the bequest is invalid, and the waqf act does not apply. If the people stirring up trouble had not feared losing the case in court, they need not have whipped up religious emotions, and taken to the streets. Nor does the concept of waqf have anything to do with another demand of the protestors, that of checking the settling down of people belonging to targetted religions.

If you tried to understand what waqf is, directly, it would help you advance logical arguments. As it is, putting forward the rumours and totally misleading stuff swirling around social media is a shallow and mindless thing to do.

"the Waqf Board maintains that the building stands on its legally owned land and has been present since before Indian independence"
"As per records, the waqf board became the owner of the land on
which the mosque was constructed when Shimla
was part of undivided Punjab"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yes ,the question is about the title of land .... can that title question be raised in a high court ?

No, according to waqf act section 40:-

Decision if a property is 1[waqf] property.-- (1) The Board may itself collect information regarding any property which it has reason to believe to be 1[waqf] property and if any question arises whether a particular property is 1[waqf] property or not or whether a 1[waqf] is a Sunni 1[waqf] or a Shia 1[waqf], it may, after making such inquiry as it may deem fit, decide the question.

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(2) The decision of the Board on a question under sub-section (1) shall, unless revoked or modified by the Tribunal, be final.

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(3) Where the Board has any reason to believe that any property of any trust or society registered in pursuance of the Indian Trusts Act, 1882 (2 of 1882) or under the Societies Registration Act, 1860 (21 of 1860) or under any other Act, is 1[waqf] property, the Board may notwithstanding anything contained in such Act, hold an inquiry in regard to such property and if after such inquiry the Board is satisfied that such property is 1[waqf] property, call upon the trust or society, as the case may be, either to register such property under this Act as 1[waqf] property or show cause why such property should not be so registered:

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Provided that in all such cases, notice of the action proposed to be taken under this sub-section shall be given to the authority by whom the trust or society had been registered.

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(4) The Board shall, after duly considering such cause as may be shown in pursuance of notice issued under sub-section (3), pass such orders as it may think fit and the order so made by the Board, shall be final, unless it is revoked or modified by a Tribunal.

Their are no rumours waqf has officially claimed that land belongs to them since before independence.

Sanjauli mosque case: Waqf Board claims ownership, court asks how single storey structure turned into 5 storeys

Advocate Pal said they were forced to join the issue as it had been lingering in the MC Commissioner's court for the past 14 years and the Waqf Board was made a party only in 2023.

indianexpress.com

 

[Joe Shearer]

"the Waqf Board maintains that the building stands on its legally owned land and has been present since before Indian independence"
"As per records, the waqf board became the owner of the land on
which the mosque was constructed when Shimla
was part of undivided Punjab"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yes ,the question is about the title of land ?.... can that title question be raised in a high court ?

No, according to waqf act section 40:-

Decision if a property is 1[waqf] property.-- (1) The Board may itself collect information regarding any property which it has reason to believe to be 1[waqf] property and if any question arises whether a particular property is 1[waqf] property or not or whether a 1[waqf] is a Sunni 1[waqf] or a Shia 1[waqf], it may, after making such inquiry as it may deem fit, decide the question.

---

(2) The decision of the Board on a question under sub-section (1) shall, unless revoked or modified by the Tribunal, be final.

---

(3) Where the Board has any reason to believe that any property of any trust or society registered in pursuance of the Indian Trusts Act, 1882 (2 of 1882) or under the Societies Registration Act, 1860 (21 of 1860) or under any other Act, is 1[waqf] property, the Board may notwithstanding anything contained in such Act, hold an inquiry in regard to such property and if after such inquiry the Board is satisfied that such property is 1[waqf] property, call upon the trust or society, as the case may be, either to register such property under this Act as 1[waqf] property or show cause why such property should not be so registered:

---

---

Provided that in all such cases, notice of the action proposed to be taken under this sub-section shall be given to the authority by whom the trust or society had been registered.

---

---

(4) The Board shall, after duly considering such cause as may be shown in pursuance of notice issued under sub-section (3), pass such orders as it may think fit and the order so made by the Board, shall be final, unless it is revoked or modified by a Tribunal.

Their are no rumours waqf has officially claimed that land belongs to them since before independence.

Sanjauli mosque case: Waqf Board claims ownership, court asks how single storey structure turned into 5 storeys

Advocate Pal said they were forced to join the issue as it had been lingering in the MC Commissioner's court for the past 14 years and the Waqf Board was made a party only in 2023.

indianexpress.com

This is a very silly reading. NOTHING in this says that the Waqf Board is beyond litigation. It says that the Board will look into disputes over ownership of the property in question.

Are you truly incapable of understanding simple statements, relating to the law?

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Board shall, after duly considering such cause as may be shown in pursuance of notice issued under sub-section (3), pass such orders as it may think fit and the order so made by the Board, shall be final, unless it is revoked or modified by a Tribunal.

Simple enough?

 

[lightoftruth]

Simple enough?

Judge, jury and executioner no ?

Waqf claims, board approves ,tribunal with civil court power justifies it, yes very simple.

I know you are not incapable to understand how waqf act is used.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Waqf claims, board approves ,tribunal with civil court power justifies it, yes very simple.

First, how is a waqf claim separate from the board? Simple; the board has to adjudicate.
Second, if the board has made a decision, it is final WITHIN THE JURISDICTION OF THE BOARD. It does not trump anything else that contradicts the claim to own property that has been gifted on the basis of a trust held under the trusteeship of the Waqf Board. It does not supersede the judicial system, it does not supersede the courts of law.

I know you are not incapable to understand how waqf act is used.

No, not at all.

Where I fail to understand things is where such massive ignorance is flaunted as a basis for condemning an entire body of specialist trust creation. What is so alien or bizarre about it?

Please calm down and stop spouting social media nonsense. Look at the facts, and all the legal text that you yourself have adduced. It's quite simple.

 

[Rollno21]

Most of the complaints pouring in are due to people who encroached on waqf property trying to defend their illegal encroachment using the religion card.

.

Spoke like a spokesperson of the WAQF board.

You do realise we are talking about the WAQF board because the board was made famous by the incident in Tamil Nadu where they claimed whole village including a temple which was built before the WAQF concept started.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Spoke like a spokesperson of the WAQF board.

You mean whoever makes things clear for dumb hicks is a spokesperson for the things that have been made clear? That's what your flip dismissal amounts to, post after post after post of simple, school-level explanation cancelled because you and your friends don't 'get' it.

You do realise we are talking about the WAQF board because the board was made famous by the incident in Tamil Nadu where they claimed whole village including a temple which was built before the WAQF concept started.

Why don't you let the courts handle it?

If someone sometime acquires title to land and property, and then proposes to hand it over as a gift to a trust, it has to be challenged in a court of law before it can be bequeathed. Is that too difficult to understand?

Do people like you understand that there were different periods in history when title to property went from one set of owners to others? The whole city of Calcutta was acquired by the British; the temple of Kalighat was much older than the city, but the lands surrounding the temple were the property of various entities including the British. So if someone were to want to gift Mamata Bannerjee's house to a trust fund, he or she would have to prove title, and not break down into sobs of grief and cite its proximity to an ancient temple that existed long before the British dropped anchor in the Kidderpore Basin.

Grow up and do your homework, and don't run around with lit torches looking for issues that don't exist, so that you can show that your favourite political faction is not worst than the people opposing them.

Every idiot can make out that the components of I.N.D.I.A. are being targeted state by state. The rape and murder in Calcutta, the work of a psychopath acting alone, as found by the city police, and as confirmed by the CBI that was called in to prove them wrong; the incident in Tamil Nadu that you mentioned; the agitation against an alleged ownership and right to built extensions to that owned property in Himachal Pradesh; is all this a coincidence?

 

[AjayGhatak]

Back to M. K. Narayanan's forecast, immediately after the electoral slap in the fact that the BJP got.

He had predicted then that the BJP led by Modi would not draw the lessons that a rational organisation would. Instead, it would double down and doggedly pursue its strategies and tactics with renewed energy.

Consider this as part of the defiant blow-back of the BJP, carrying some enthusiastic, and some reluctant parts of the Sangh Parivar along with it. The VHP being headless and lunatic in character, with a thin film of caste condescension differentiating it from the Bajrang Dal, the RSS forced to stay in the background, wringing its hands and preaching a less-violent posture to the general public that nobody any longer pays any attention to.

As the BJP grip on power slips, it will get more and more violent.

It will also pounce on the slightest mistake that any member of I.N.D.I.A. might make. Look at the way that a sickening rape and murder in Calcutta has become a Dhaka-like protest against the Mamata Bannerjee misrule and stinking corruption.

Turbulent times ahead.

What a joker!

With resources that BJP has at its disposal, it can break enough MPs from any political party in federal government it wants. Use some common sense for once.

Everything does not revolves around a single person or a party.