Tempest | the UK's Next Generation Fighter | Updates & Discussions

[xiao]

Direct development of the sixth generation without experience in the development of fifth-generation fighters? Then I personally announced that I would develop the 100th generation fighter separately, and then directly postpone it indefinitely

 

[harpy1]

Tempest can create a massive opportunity for India and UK cooperation again

India needs a quick and lethal response to the massive fifth generation fleet threat of china like now ..

Amca will happen but typical indian pace imo post 2040.

Tempest will be more advanced and will come quicker

The India will have by 2035 the third largest defense budget in the world and
Will need massive order for new generation fighters to replace Mki which number over 250.

For UK and partners India would be the dream market imagine Indian order for 300 tempest fighters over two decades

Right now India spends about 75 billion dollars on military in 2035 this will be close to double that maybe even 200 billion dollars a year. India on its own could buy more Tempest fighters than the four partner countries on their own

I think the Brits have tried to invite Indian participation already but India was luke warm after Pak fa russian fiasco

They want to go it alone

I think it's a mistake

 

[GoMig-21]

Tempest can create a massive opportunity for India and UK cooperation again

India needs a quick and lethal response to the massive fifth generation fleet threat of china like now ..

Amca will happen but typical indian pace imo post 2040.

Tempest will be more advanced and will come quicker

The India will have by 2035 the third largest defense budget in the world and
Will need massive order for new generation fighters to replace Mki which number over 250.

For UK and partners India would be the dream market imagine Indian order for 300 tempest fighters over two decades

Right now India spends about 75 billion dollars on military in 2035 this will be close to double that maybe even 200 billion dollars a year. India on its own could buy more Tempest fighters than the four partner countries on their own

I think the Brits have tried to invite Indian participation already but India was luke warm after Pak fa russian fiasco

They want to go it alone

I think it's a mistake

Interesting. Wouldn't India get the same resistance it would get if it was interested in the F-35? Too much involvement with Russia that it would cause pause with the Brits even with supplying the eventual Tempest, let alone allow participation in its development, just like it would be with the US, no?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Tempest can create a massive opportunity for India and UK cooperation again

India needs a quick and lethal response to the massive fifth generation fleet threat of china like now ..

Amca will happen but typical indian pace imo post 2040.

Tempest will be more advanced and will come quicker

The India will have by 2035 the third largest defense budget in the world and
Will need massive order for new generation fighters to replace Mki which number over 250.

For UK and partners India would be the dream market imagine Indian order for 300 tempest fighters over two decades

Right now India spends about 75 billion dollars on military in 2035 this will be close to double that maybe even 200 billion dollars a year. India on its own could buy more Tempest fighters than the four partner countries on their own

I think the Brits have tried to invite Indian participation already but India was luke warm after Pak fa russian fiasco

They want to go it alone

I think it's a mistake

The UK has kept France and Germany at arms length because of the problems of haggling that they brought to the Typhoon project for industrial "advantage". That political posturing has compromised the entire Typhoon programme until it stops flying. There are fundamental problems in Typhoon that stopped it achieving its full natural potential that are baked into the programme because of the industrial advantage card that those two countries did.

Tempest from day #1 is being done differently. Lessons learnt. India will bring back into the programme the same problems that France/Germany brought into the Typhoon programme of poltical industrial posturing. So far, the GCAP programme has been quite mature and it progressing with pace without the theatrics of the past. Hell - you notice how quiet and hardworking the Italians (of all people!!!) are on the GCAP programme.

India brings nothing of value as one of the founding industrial "partners". Maybe down the road as a potential client, with some bits outsourced to India - but not at the core DNA of the programme during this phase.

Tempest is too important to the UK economy to risk with India.. and far far far too important to Japans national security against China to risk India's involvement. The GCAP programme has moved towards meeting "more of Japans requirements" than the UK's, hence the uplift in the size of the platform from what was originally planned. That is how mucch the UK wants the GCAP programme to succeed!!!!!!!

 

[harpy1]

There has been some talk about uk looking to invite India to join Tempest programme
The thinking is obvious
Funding support and future massive market
India prefers technology and and support for Engines no interest in joining and funding Tempest
I personally think they should India should push to join either the UK tempest programme or Frances FCAV as a partner

The threat from.china is huge and Amca may never happen or be too late

 

[harpy1]

UK to invite India to co-develop the sixth-generation Tempest fighter aircraft

www.ajaishukla.com

Not sure how true this might be

India certainly has clout in international arena .
Indian market is massive and I'm sure both France and UK would want to capture Indian orders for their new generation fighters

It's more about how India wants to play this out

Right now they seem.to want to go down their own self reliance

 

[silicon0000]

Tempest can create a massive opportunity for India and UK cooperation again

India needs a quick and lethal response to the massive fifth generation fleet threat of china like now ..

Amca will happen but typical indian pace imo post 2040.

Tempest will be more advanced and will come quicker

The India will have by 2035 the third largest defense budget in the world and
Will need massive order for new generation fighters to replace Mki which number over 250.

For UK and partners India would be the dream market imagine Indian order for 300 tempest fighters over two decades

Right now India spends about 75 billion dollars on military in 2035 this will be close to double that maybe even 200 billion dollars a year. India on its own could buy more Tempest fighters than the four partner countries on their own

I think the Brits have tried to invite Indian participation already but India was luke warm after Pak fa russian fiasco

They want to go it alone

I think it's a mistake

The UK has kept France and Germany at arms length because of the problems of haggling that they brought to the Typhoon project for industrial "advantage". That political posturing has compromised the entire Typhoon programme until it stops flying. There are fundamental problems in Typhoon that stopped it achieving its full natural potential that are baked into the programme because of the industrial advantage card that those two countries did.

Tempest from day #1 is being done differently. Lessons learnt. India will bring back into the programme the same problems that France/Germany brought into the Typhoon programme of poltical industrial posturing. So far, the GCAP programme has been quite mature and it progressing with pace without the theatrics of the past. Hell - you notice how quiet and hardworking the Italians (of all people!!!) are on the GCAP programme.

India brings nothing of value as one of the founding industrial "partners". Maybe down the road as a potential client, with some bits outsourced to India - but not at the core DNA of the programme during this phase.

Tempest is too important to the UK economy to risk with India.. and far far far too important to Japans national security against China to risk India's involvement. The GCAP programme has moved towards meeting "more of Japans requirements" than the UK's, hence the uplift in the size of the platform from what was originally planned. That is how mucch the UK wants the GCAP programme to succeed!!!!!!!

The Indian Air Force appears to have a stronger preference for doing business with France compared to the United Kingdom. This is likely due, in part, to the successful acquisition of the Mirage and Rafale fighter jets. Tempest Project is basically not Indian. Going for Indian Sixth Gen Project after AMCA will be waste of time.

As France develops its next-generation fighter, the FCAS, India's potential participation in the program presents a strategic opportunity and will be a natural transition from Rafale. Looking ahead to the post-2040 timeframe, direct purchases might be an option, and in fact, that's what will surely happen. However, joining the FCAS program now could offer greater long-term benefits. This includes shaping the development of this advanced technology and ensuring India has a stake in its future. In my view, the biggest mistake India could make right now is not joining the FCAS program.

 

[UKBengali]

The Indian Air Force appears to have a stronger preference for doing business with France compared to the United Kingdom. This is likely due, in part, to the successful acquisition of the Mirage and Rafale fighter jets. Tempest Project is basically not Indian. Going for Indian Sixth Gen Project after AMCA will be waste of time.

As France develops its next-generation fighter, the FCAS, India's potential participation in the program presents a strategic opportunity. Looking ahead to the post-2040 timeframe, direct purchases might be an option, and in fact, that's what will surely happen. However, joining the FCAS program now could offer greater long-term benefits. This includes shaping the development of this advanced technology and ensuring India has a stake in its future. In my view, the biggest mistake India could make right now is not joining the FCAS program.

There is only one fighter available to India that can go toe to toe with China's 6th generation fighter and that is the Tempest.

Franco-German fighter will be 2nd rate and probably not much better than upgraded F-22/J-20 etc. France lacks both in engine techn and unlike UK has little stealth experience.

Like I said before India needs to get into the Tempest programe and use its large potential order to get as much workshare as possible, and access to the most sophisticated workshare that its technological base can handle.

No one is going to teach India the secrets of building a fighter, no matter how much money it brings into the programme.

 

[silicon0000]

There is only one fighter available to India that can go toe to toe with China's 6th generation fighter and that is the Tempest.

Franco-German fighter will be 2nd rate and probably not much better than upgraded F-22/J-20 etc. France lacks both in engine techn and unlike UK has little stealth experience.

Like I said before India needs to get into the Tempest programe and use its large potential order to get as much workshare as possible, and access to the most sophisticated workshare that its technological base can handle.

No one is going to teach India the secrets of building a fighter, no matter how much money it brings into the programme.

You are underestimating French and German too much dear. Rest you are right.

 

[Liquidator]

Direct development of the sixth generation without experience in the development of fifth-generation fighters? Then I personally announced that I would develop the 100th generation fighter separately, and then directly postpone it indefinitely

The UK can achieve anything it wants. They have a rich history of military innovation and the brain power and self respect to do so.
Do not underestimate the brits.

Call me when the Chinese manage to make something that isn't a copy.

 

[harpy1]

The UK can achieve anything it wants. They have a rich history of military innovation and the brain power and self respect to do so.
Do not underestimate the brits.

Call me when the Chinese manage to make something that isn't a copy.

British have allways been great military power but in recent years both the Tornado v mirage 2000 and the Rafale v Typhoon the french came with better product

The reason I say Tempest for India is because the Brits have tentatively had conversation about Indian involvement at some stage..
But I do agree French option is very realistic option for India as buyer and some work share on mass production ie outsourcing too

Indian french military cooperation is very deep

But Tempest looks world class too

 

[GoMig-21]

Team Tempest strengthens relationship across​

I still have a teeny weeny itty bitty problem with the look of H-stab-less designs. Seeing that top view of this aircraft -- and other similar ones for that matter -- makes me uncomfortable for some strange reason. I know it sounds weird to have such an anal perspective, that something like that would bother me, but it just does.

Not only does it feel like something is drastically missing, but it adds to the weirdness of the overall look of the aircraft. Just from this angle (top and bottom) but any other angle it looks fantastic. Even the YF-23 which was really the first platform that exhibited that design (not necessarily the first to introduce it) and look about as beautiful as could possibly be, the fact that it was without horizontal stabilizers also gave just that little bit of tension, if you will, to its overall looks. The super canted V-stabs somewhat make up for it, but it still had that tension in it.

In this case, it's a lot more obvious to me, anyway, that tension is augmented even more with the shortness of the overall length of the aircraft and the not so drastic canting of the V-stabs.

The same applies to the Checkmate. It also gives me probably more tension when I look at it without any H-stabs.

Even from that angle, the Su-75 with that same design concept has too much tension with the missing H-stabs.

Some might say well look at all the Euro canard deltas and even the J-20? Those don't have any H-stabs and my answer to that is obviously the canards themselves make up for that because they simply take the place of the H-stabs and by virtue of having those canards, they force the wings to be pushed further aft of the fuselage, so it takes that tension away.

The same can be said of pure deltas such as the venerable Mirage in all its variations. The delta wings are large but more importantly because they are the only lift-generating components with large, inclusive movable surfaces which take on the functions & duties of those missing H-stabs and forcing them further aft of the fuselage, there is zero tension.

They look perfect from any angle.

It's just perfect without them.

But these new 6th gen designs without horizontal stabs just feel like they're missing something. Does that make any sense, or am I just being an anal donkey? lol

>> With each step - it is becoming more real.

Tempest Fighter Begins To Take Shape With​

That is just insane! Incredible. One can only imagine the testing they'll be putting this thing through and looking at that picture, it looks like they might even be ahead of schedule already.

British have allways been great military power but in recent years both the Tornado v mirage 2000 and the Rafale v Typhoon the french came with better product

While I agree with you on those two examples for the most part, I would have to say the Brits did have to take the Germans' and to some extent the Italians' & Spanish's contributions into consideration with the Typhoon. Still, though, despite that one can say the Typhoon does have some advantages over the Rafale. The difference is not considerable in other words.

The reason I say Tempest for India is because the Brits have tentatively had conversation about Indian involvement at some stage..
But I do agree French option is very realistic option for India as buyer and some work share on mass production ie outsourcing too

Indian french military cooperation is very deep

But Tempest looks world class too

As much as India takes a beating around here, one can't take away its accomplishments, without question and going way back, even. This is but one example and I chose it to make the point given the connection to the name, and context.

17 June 1961 – First flight of HAL HF-24 Marut ("Spirit of the Tempest") was an Indian jet fighter aircraft developed and manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) during the 1960s and early 70s. total of 147 Maruts were manufactured, with IAF being the sole operator.

 

[UKBengali]

British have allways been great military power but in recent years both the Tornado v mirage 2000 and the Rafale v Typhoon the french came with better product

The reason I say Tempest for India is because the Brits have tentatively had conversation about Indian involvement at some stage..
But I do agree French option is very realistic option for India as buyer and some work share on mass production ie outsourcing too

Indian french military cooperation is very deep

But Tempest looks world class too

You are not comparing like with like.


Tornado was made initially to be a ground attack aircraft and then there was a fighter version called Tornado ADV, which of course was worse than the dedicated Mirage-2000 fighter.


As for Rafale, well the Typhoon smokes it in high-altitude BVR duels. Rafale is better at ground attack as it was designed to be "omni-role" from the get go but the Typhoon was designed to shoot down Soviet SU-27s and Mig-29s over the skies of Central Europe.


If you want the best available next-gen fighter aircraft then the Tempest is the only game in town and should be able to stand toe to toe with whatever China comes out with in the mid-2030s. Franco-German alternative will have the PLAAF literally laughing at India for being so stupid!

 

[GoMig-21]

Tempest looking really sweet, even with the short, stubby gears. It seems like a really small aircraft, don't it? I forget the projected specs on how much fuel it should carry but size-wise, despite being comparable to the F-35, it's not as chubby as the latter which as a result of that chubbiness, packs a lot of fuel. It will be interesting to see how they solve the fuel capacity for this design.

And speaking of design, the new configuration of the Su-75 Checkmate seems to have A LOT of similarities to the Tempest, particularly the notching trailing edge of the wings. Perhaps Sukhoi tested this design and found it to be aerodynamically superior to the original checkmate prototype.